The Tiger Woods Retirement Thread

[mvmac]

He has the yips.

Did you watch the Masters?

[Mr. Desmond]

Can we put the yips to bed?

He had a bad back, two children, a girlfriend, an ex-wife, and a new swing "consultant."

I mean, when did he have time to practice the short game?

The GF had to go...

[Dave2512]

Seems to be hitting it well off the tee. Anyone want to guess what Blandel's next criticism will be?

[Shorty]

He has the yips.

If you are going to write 50 line posts and then include nonsense like this you won't get many people reading past the name of the poster.

Do you actually watch the game?

[Mr. Desmond]

Seems to be hitting it well off the tee. Anyone want to guess what Blandel's next criticism will be?

He doesn't putt like Tiger...

[Dave2512]

I think we have the answer after that mess on #8.

[Billbill13]

Golfers make bad shots all the time, that swing on 8 could happen to anyone on tour, the difference is not every shot by every player is televised. Charley Hoffman just took a 7 on the first hole, should he hang it up?

[Big Lex]

I think in terms of peak value - which I am defining as performance during a player's top 10-15 years - there is no doubt Tiger is the greatest golfer ever. Total career value, you have to give the nod to Jack. Regarding some of the reactions to my statement about him having the yips....the yips come and go and players are often able to put the condition into remission so to speak. But as I believe Snead or Jack Burke or Demaret once said, if you've had 'em, you've got 'em. Tiger is not finished with short game struggles. Look, I am not denying that a tie for 19th in the Masters is good. And for all the criticisms of his swing technique, I think he clearly still has one of the best swings in golf. His technique is excellent. But there is a difference between striking it well and winning. He strikes it well, but makes a few more unforced errors than he used to. He doesn't make as many putts as he once did. He is still a powerful player, but he no longer has a huge power advantage over most of the field as he did 10-15 years ago; many players are more powerful. Twice in his career he won 6-7 majors in a three year span. You don't do that by having solid technique and a great work ethic alone. You have to have a lot more. You have to be head and shoulders above the field in nearly all facets of the game. Many times in the past we've seen golfers in their late 30s and 40s who seem on the surface to be every bit as good or better than they were in their prime. Arnold Palmer in the 1970s hit it very straight and was regarded by his peers as still being an excellent player. But he was finished as a real force. Jack won a major at 46, but his last year as a potential dominant force was 1980. Tom Watson had a similar trajectory. Tiger's game may be looking better (how could it not, as bad as it had gotten in recent years), but he has fallen significantly off his peak, such that he becomes much more like an ordinary top 50 level tour player. And of top 50-caliber players who are age 39+, how many of those guys would you bet money on that they will win even one major? Or three or four regular tour events? It isn't fun to make a bet or a challenge that seems too easy. I think anyone would be crazy to bet serious money on Tiger Woods winning 5 more major championships. That's why I am being a bit more provocative about it, to make it fun. I may be selling him a little short, but I am willing to take bets on my original over/under of two tournaments total for him...... He's a great player,

[iacas]

Regarding some of the reactions to my statement about him having the yips....the yips come and go and players are often able to put the condition into remission so to speak. But as I believe Snead or Jack Burke or Demaret once said, if you've had 'em, you've got 'em. Tiger is not finished with short game struggles.

Filed for future claim chowder.

My opinion: Tiger didn't have the yips. He had some bad technique.

[saevel25]

Regarding some of the reactions to my statement about him having the yips....the yips come and go and players are often able to put the condition into remission so to speak. But as I believe Snead or Jack Burke or Demaret once said, if you've had 'em, you've got 'em. Tiger is not finished with short game struggles.

Tiger never had the yips. Most sports medicine people say that the yips are an actual neurological issue with the fine motor muscles in the hands. No way Tiger had the yips and was able to clear it up in that short amount of time and have that good of a short game at The Masters.

But there is a difference between striking it well and winning. He strikes it well, but makes a few more unforced errors than he used to. He doesn't make as many putts as he once did. He is still a powerful player, but he no longer has a huge power advantage over most of the field as he did 10-15 years ago; many players are more powerful.

He didn't strike good at all at The Player's. Heck he's not playing good this year and he still was in contention at The Masters. To think that he's playing anywhere near were he can is just absurd. He's still rusty and needs to stay healthy to get some consistent reps.

Tiger's game may be looking better (how could it not, as bad as it had gotten in recent years), but he has fallen significantly off his peak, such that he becomes much more like an ordinary top 50 level tour player. And of top 50-caliber players who are age 39+, how many of those guys would you bet money on that they will win even one major? Or three or four regular tour events?

Phil's 44 years old and he's won 2 majors after the age of 39 and has 4 2nd places finishes. If Tiger can stay healthy and get some momentum I think he can do better than that in the next 5 years. I would say Tiger could get 3 maybe 4 more majors if things roll his way.

I'd say watch out for St. Andrews. He likes the course. You don't need driver. I say he could sneak in a Major this year.

[Big Lex]

Filed for future claim chowder. My opinion: Tiger didn't have the yips. He had some bad technique.

Fair enough. Maybe so. It will be fun to watch the next few years.

[Big Lex]

Tiger never had the yips. Most sports medicine people say that the yips are an actual neurological issue with the fine motor muscles in the hands. No way Tiger had the yips and was able to clear it up in that short amount of time and have that good of a short game at The Masters.

The much-quoted Mayo clinic study found players with the yips to be suffering from what is called a "focal dystonia" by neurologists. This is actually my field--I am a neuropathologist. The focal dystonia thing - based on a limited evaluation of a few players - is merely a description of what is happening at the macroscopic level. The cause of dystonia, and of tics and spasms and so forth, is not really known. Whether golfers develop yips because of physiologic decline, mental decline, or a combination, is not known and probably never will be. Bernhard Langer is probably an example of someone who cured himself of the yips. I think Tiger's problems had the characteristics of yips. Multiple "boned" chips, the fat or otherwise flubbed ones, the amateur-like results....professionals at that level probably hit within 1/8th inch of the sweet spot of the club face about 98% of the time, so it seemed to me that something yip like had to happening in order for his natural eye hand coordination to be so significantly short circuited. To those who think he has it in him to really make a comeback: how do you describe his putting now, compared to 1997-2008?

[Mr. Desmond]

The much-quoted Mayo clinic study found players with the yips to be suffering from what is called a "focal dystonia" by neurologists.

This is actually my field--I am a neuropathologist. The focal dystonia thing - based on a limited evaluation of a few players - is merely a description of what is happening at the macroscopic level. The cause of dystonia, and of tics and spasms and so forth, is not really known. Whether golfers develop yips because of physiologic decline, mental decline, or a combination, is not known and probably never will be.

Bernhard Langer is probably an example of someone who cured himself of the yips.

I think Tiger's problems had the characteristics of yips. Multiple "boned" chips, the fat or otherwise flubbed ones, the amateur-like results....professionals at that level probably hit within 1/8th inch of the sweet spot of the club face about 98% of the time, so it seemed to me that something yip like had to happening in order for his natural eye hand coordination to be so significantly short circuited.

To those who think he has it in him to really make a comeback: how do you describe his putting now, compared to 1997-2008?

Yes, he had bad technique and insufficient practice.

The thing is, it has happened before in his previous swing changes. He focused on the full swing and not enough on the short game, someone says "yips" and everyone picks up on it.

[iacas]

Bernhard Langer is probably an example of someone who cured himself of the yips.

By completely changing to a very different technique.

Woods is still using the same grip, stance, and a lot more in common. He didn't buy a 50" wedge he can anchor to his chest or to go a cross-handed or arm-lock style grip in order to short-circuit the yips and let him get a simple chip or pitch on the green.

Tiger tweaked his technique. He didn't short circuit it by going to something wildly different.

Pros need to hit it within about 1/8" of perfect, you're right. That just goes to show you how important the technique is. If it's off a little bit, with tight lies and sticky grass, horrible results happen. That's why the average amateur can make what looks like the same exact pitching stroke and blade one, fat one, and pitch it to three feet, all in three holes. Or on the same hole!

I think Tiger's problems had the characteristics of yips. Multiple "boned" chips, the fat or otherwise flubbed ones, the amateur-like results....professionals at that level probably hit within 1/8th inch of the sweet spot of the club face about 98% of the time, so it seemed to me that something yip like had to happening in order for his natural eye hand coordination to be so significantly short circuited.

All explained by bad technique.

Heck, I worked with a guy on Saturday that couldn't stop blading his "distance wedges" (1/4, 1/2, 3/4 wedges). 95% of the time it was a horrible shot. I said about twenty words to him (maybe 8 were important, the rest were to make sentences). Fixed. No more bad shots.

According to you, I should market myself as a curer of yips?

To those who think he has it in him to really make a comeback: how do you describe his putting now, compared to 1997-2008?

He's not that much worse than then. He was always a bit over-rated as a putter. He was better than average, but he wasn't the best ever, or even the best on the Tour. The stats bear that out.

He finished The Players with -0.099 strokes gained putting. Tiger's success came from his ball-striking.

You're kind of all over the place here @Big Lex . Here are some more relevant, specific threads:

This thread is about his retirement, which… doesn't appear to be happening this year.

P.S. To echo what @Mr. Desmond said, when Tiger first started working with Foley, he ignored his putting more than he used to, and missed a lot of short putts. Like really short ones. Then he practiced them more as his full swing got better… and won 8 times in two years. He's still won as much as or more than anyone else on the PGA Tour since 2012.

[saevel25]

Heck, I worked with a guy on Saturday that couldn't stop blading his "distance wedges" (1/4, 1/2, 3/4 wedges). 95% of the time it was a horrible shot. I said about twenty words to him (maybe 8 were important, the rest were to make sentences). Fixed. No more bad shots.

According to you, I should market myself as a curer of yips?

To those who think he has it in him to really make a comeback: how do you describe his putting now, compared to 1997-2008?

He had a good 5 year stretch when he was a very good putter. I wouldn't put him as one of the best of all time. He was pretty much an above average putter. I would say good is the best term to describe it.

Heck even when he was a very good putter, lets say 2007. He was 3rd in strokes gained putting. He gained 30.6 strokes on the field (average) over the course of a season. He was 1st in strokes gained from tee to green. He had a 97.6 stroke advantage over the field (average) total.

Tiger's long game was 3x as important than his putting in 2007, even when he was in the top 5 in putting. Heck even if he was an average putter for the year. So basically zero strokes above the field. Average putter for a year doesn't gain or lose strokes compared to other golfers. His scoring average would still be the best on the PGA Tour by nearly a full stroke.

Tiger's game was never about his short game or putting. It was his driving and iron play.