The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[Abu3baid]

Where are these findings that he had PED's added to his treatments? I'd love to read the reports.

I never said there were findings... That's me filling in the blanks.. If there was evidence like that out we wouldn't be having this discussion.. There are only two or three people that would know.. Tiger, and the two doctors who treated him.. We won't be taking the doctors word for it because they are convicted felons and we can't take tigers because he is an expert at hiding secrets.. So, I take the liberty of filling in missing information.. You say he is clean and would never touch that stuff, I say the pressure to come back and win in the end pushed him over the edge and that's why he reached out to the witch doctor on A Rods recommendation. :) People speculate all the time bill, why is it when it comes to Tiger no one is allowed to suspect anything? If you remember he also had the clean image of a good father of two, and we all know how that turned out.. He is a great golfer no one can take that away from home, probably the best that ever lived and no one might come close.. But I think the pressure got to him that's all.. Pretty simple..

[billchao]

I never said there were findings... That's me filling in the blanks.. If there was evidence like that out we wouldn't be having this discussion..

There are only two or three people that would know.. Tiger, and the two doctors who treated him.. We won't be taking the doctors word for it because they are convicted felons and we can't take tigers because he is an expert at hiding secrets.. So, I take the liberty of filling in missing information.. You say he is clean and would never touch that stuff, I say the pressure to come back and win in the end pushed him over the edge and that's why he reached out to the witch doctor on A Rods recommendation. :)

So... you just made shit up. Got it.

People speculate all the time bill, why is it when it comes to Tiger no one is allowed to suspect anything?

I never said you weren't allowed to speculate. You're more than welcome to continue defending your position. I'm fairly certain I've done nothing to prove otherwise.

But your argument is weak, your logic is flawed, and your evidence is lacking. You cling onto the small amount of information that may indicate a possible use of PEDs and ignore the larger body of information that supports the contrary. You're going to get called out on this every time and you know it.

If you remember he also had the clean image of a good father of two, and we all know how that turned out..

As far as I know, he's still a good father of two. His kids tell you something that nobody else knows about?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by billchao

Where are these findings that he had PED's added to his treatments? I'd love to read the reports.

I never said there were findings... That's me filling in the blanks.. If there was evidence like that out we wouldn't be having this discussion..

There are only two or three people that would know.. Tiger, and the two doctors who treated him.. We won't be taking the doctors word for it because they are convicted felons and we can't take tigers because he is an expert at hiding secrets.. So, I take the liberty of filling in missing information.. You say he is clean and would never touch that stuff, I say the pressure to come back and win in the end pushed him over the edge and that's why he reached out to the witch doctor on A Rods recommendation. :)

People speculate all the time bill, why is it when it comes to Tiger no one is allowed to suspect anything? If you remember he also had the clean image of a good father of two, and we all know how that turned out.. He is a great golfer no one can take that away from home, probably the best that ever lived and no one might come close.. But I think the pressure got to him that's all.. Pretty simple..

It's you filling in blanks where none exist.  This is the issue.  Your bias creates an argument from what isn't there in the first place.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

I don't hate him

Okay then, you're just incredibly unreasonable on this. Got it.

The quote was from an article that talked about Tiger after the treatments, I didn't come up with it, the article was provided by Scott.. you probably just didn't read all of the posts previous to the one you are quoting.

I read them all. You replaced "PRPs" in a PR thing with "PEDs" and then kept referring to it as some sort of proof that "it all makes sense" or something.

So, basically you disagree that the plasma treatments worked for him? Because that was the argument used by the author that it did..

The PRP worked, did it not? Tiger recovered from his 2008 surgery and had a good (not, for him, phenomenal) 2009. Yes? He was also then injured in other ways in later years. No?

I'm starting to believe that your tiger loving glasses are clouding your judgement.

:sigh: You're clearly missing the point here. Cut the glasses stuff. I was giving you an "out" to save yourself from looking entirely unreasonable. I give up.

My evidence is not he knows a guy. You are making that up.

I paraphrased. He got legitimate, legal, authorized treatment from a guy well-known for such treatments.

My evidence is he got plasma or whatever other treatments from the guy.

That's not evidence of anything other than getting PRP treatments.

And the extent of the treatments was exposed in a book along with the findings of the Florida health department investigation. It is in those treatments I believe he most likely had a little something added.

So, your evidence is what you believe. Got it.

[Abu3baid]

So... you just made shit up. Got it. I never said you weren't allowed to speculate. You're more than welcome to continue defending your position. I'm fairly certain I've done nothing to prove otherwise. But your argument is weak, your logic is flawed, and your evidence is lacking. You cling onto the small amount of information that may indicate a possible use of PEDs and ignore the larger body of information that supports the contrary. You're going to get called out on this every time and you know it. As far as I know, he's still a good father of two. His kids tell you something that nobody else knows about?

No, I'm not making stuff up.. I already said I believe he did PED, so me saying that he took it along with the plasma treatment isn't really a breakthrough.. Well, we have different definitions of being a good father then.. My definition is where the father doesn't cheat on their mother with hookers.. Also, I don't want to take this thread OT but I mentioned that in the context of not taking his word when he says I didn't do it guys I swear. [quote name="Fourputt" url="/t/80150/the-tiger-woods-ped-thread/320_10#post_1150559"] It's you filling in blanks where none exist.  This is the issue.  Your bias creates an argument from what isn't there in the first place. [/quote] My bias? This is the second time you have mentioned this.. I don't want to go OT in this thread, but if you want to shoot me a pm explaining why I should be biased towards Tiger that would be great.. Guys I'm not even sure why this thread was opened? To defend tiger or to discuss? I'm not the only one that believes he did it.. As soon as someone says he did it he is labeled as a hater, biased prejudice person. Actually almost 30 people on this site voted yes and this is as pro tiger forum as it gets. A lot of tiger haters? C'mon..

[iacas]

No, I'm not making stuff up.. I already said I believe he did PED, so me saying that he took it along with the plasma treatment isn't really a breakthrough..

Guys I'm not even sure why this thread was opened? To defend tiger or to discuss? I'm not the only one that believes he did it.. As soon as someone says he did it he is labeled as a hater, biased prejudice person.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by billchao

So... you just made shit up. Got it.

I never said you weren't allowed to speculate. You're more than welcome to continue defending your position. I'm fairly certain I've done nothing to prove otherwise.

But your argument is weak, your logic is flawed, and your evidence is lacking. You cling onto the small amount of information that may indicate a possible use of PEDs and ignore the larger body of information that supports the contrary. You're going to get called out on this every time and you know it.

As far as I know, he's still a good father of two. His kids tell you something that nobody else knows about?

No, I'm not making stuff up.. I already said I believe he did PED, so me saying that he took it along with the plasma treatment isn't really a breakthrough..

Well, we have different definitions of being a good father then.. My definition is where the father doesn't cheat on their mother with hookers.. Also, I don't want to take this thread OT but I mentioned that in the context of not taking his word when he says I didn't do it guys I swear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It's you filling in blanks where none exist.  This is the issue.  Your bias creates an argument from what isn't there in the first place.

My bias? This is the second time you have mentioned this.. I don't want to go OT in this thread, but if you want to shoot me a pm explaining why I should be biased towards Tiger that would be great..

Guys I'm not even sure why this thread was opened? To defend tiger or to discuss? I'm not the only one that believes he did it.. As soon as someone says he did it he is labeled as a hater, biased prejudice person. Actually almost 30 people on this site voted yes and this is as pro tiger forum as it gets. A lot of tiger haters? C'mon..

If you didn't have a bias you wouldn't be so adamant about this.  Your so called evidence is nothing more than your own opinion based on no evidence.  The indicators that Tiger did not use PED's are far stronger than your guilt by association conspiracy theory.  The fact that you won't let go, won't even consider that we even have an argument, all points to an extreme bias.  Bring in your known dislike of Tigers marriage issues, add them all together and yes, I say you are biased.  You are the one whose glasses distort reality.

[Abu3baid]

If you didn't have a bias you wouldn't be so adamant about this.  Your so called evidence is nothing more than your own opinion based on no evidence.  The indicators that Tiger did not use PED's are far stronger than your guilt by association conspiracy theory.  The fact that you won't let go, won't even consider that we even have an argument, all points to an extreme bias.  Bring in your known dislike of Tigers marriage issues, add them all together and yes, I say you are biased.  You are the one whose glasses distort reality.

Your love for Tiger is the only thing stopping you from even considering that there is even a slight possibility that he used PEDs.. For me I stuck up for athletes before like A Rod when rulers started to fly around him using PEDs and I won't be making that mistake again.. In fact there is only one athlete that I would stick up for and that's Ken Griffy Jr., probably wouldn't for any one else, and Tiger is no exception.. (But tell me KGJ had visits with the witch doctor and I'll change my mind real quick) Again, this is so much more in my eyes than guilt by association... There were more than 50 visits in Tigers home, ugh why do I even bother.. I'm sure it's just me being biased again right? This thread should get locked IMO, since there is no remote chance that TW used PED it is pretty useless keeping a thread around to discuss his non use of it..

[Golfingdad]

Your love for Tiger is the only thing stopping you from even considering that there is even a slight possibility that he used PEDs.. For me I stuck up for athletes before like A Rod when rulers started to fly around him using PEDs and I won't be making that mistake again.. In fact there is only one athlete that I would stick up for and that's Ken Griffy Jr., probably wouldn't for any one else, and Tiger is no exception.. (But tell me KGJ had visits with the witch doctor and I'll change my mind real quick) Again, this is so much more in my eyes than guilt by association... There were more than 50 visits in Tigers home, ugh why do I even bother.. I'm sure it's just me being biased again right? This thread should get locked IMO, since there is no remote chance that TW used PED it is pretty useless keeping a thread around to discuss his non use of it..

But don't you see ... You are making the EXACT same mistake again. The mistake is that you're jumping to conclusions with nothing to back you up. In ARods case, your evidence was what? That you wanted to believe and perhaps that he said he didn't do it? You don't want to get burned again and so your solution isn't to temper your opinion to something not so extreme but rather to just go completely the other way. But, alas, this will work fine for you because you can't get burned again - nobody's ever proving that negative so you're safe. You'll always be able to hang onto "the truth will eventually come out."

[mvmac]

C"mon peeps, it's pretty much a known quantity that Tiger used PEDs at some point in his career. I played with 30 guys today. To a man, they believe it and most are die-hard Tiger fanboys.

The circumstantial evidence is too great. I know it but still appreciate that he is one of the GOAT. It helped him in his workouts; he's paying the price now. Is what it is. Not sure it'll ever come out publicly but jeez, it's purty obvious at this point.

If he was taking PEDs they sure didn't work. He's had injuries since college and didn't bulk up any more than a normal fit guy going from his 20's to 30's.

[saevel25]

Your love for Tiger is the only thing stopping you from even considering that there is even a slight possibility that he used PEDs.. For me I stuck up for athletes before like A Rod when rulers started to fly around him using PEDs and I won't be making that mistake again.. In fact there is only one athlete that I would stick up for and that's Ken Griffy Jr., probably wouldn't for any one else, and Tiger is no exception.. (But tell me KGJ had visits with the witch doctor and I'll change my mind real quick)

A-Rod was an entitled crybaby who would never admit to taking steroids because in his mind he can do no wrong. I never once believed A-Rod was telling the truth.

Here's the thing. Even if there is a slight, lets say 1% chance Tiger used PED's. That doesn't mean you assume he did. I'd say the chance that Tiger took PED is ZERO %, that's right ZERO % chance. I am not the type of person who sees a guy visit that doctor and assumes he's like A-Rod. Nothing else adds up at all to him taking steroids.

You're like the guy who sees the coincidental event and yells, "AHAH, He's guilty, Burn him at the stake".

OMG Tiger actually came back from ACL injury in the amount of time it usually takes an athlete to return to their sport activites, He's a PED user.

OMG Tiger won 3 times after not winning in 2 years, given he won at 3 tournaments he's won multiple times before, He's PED user.

If he was taking PEDs they sure didn't work. He's had injuries since college and didn't bulk up any more than a normal fit guy going from his 20's to 30's.

Pretty much this. Tiger's had knee issues since his college days. He actually had surgery early in his career to get the knee cleaned out of scar tissue. Then it caught up to him in 2009 and he had ACL Surgery, which he came back from in the usual time frame. Then he's had on and off injuries since. Nothing screams PED use. He's not like Roger Clemen's who won the Cy-Young after the age of 37, and was throwing the fastball like he was 25 again.

[iacas]

Your love for Tiger is the only thing stopping you from even considering that there is even a slight possibility that he used PEDs.

Flat out ridiculous, for three very simple reasons:

• Dough is the only person here that I've seen say there is no chance, no "slight possibility" that Tiger took PEDs. Everyone else who would vote "no" right now simply falls somewhere in the 1% to 49% range. Many of us are on the lower end of the scale, say 10% chance, but even with a 45% chance you still vote "no." (I also suspect he'd admit there's a chance if pressed… and his "ZERO %" was just a reaction to your stance.)
• Calling @Fourputt a Tiger lover? Ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, cuz he has such a history of that…
• You've apparently completely missed the point of my giving you the out to just say you hate Tiger and be done with it. The alternative makes you look like, on this, you have the reasoning capacity of a stalk of celery.

For me I stuck up for athletes before like A Rod when rulers started to fly around him using PEDs and I won't be making that mistake again.

That's an incredibly stupid position to take. Could you imagine where we'd be in the world if we did that for everything? Wow.

In fact there is only one athlete that I would stick up for and that's Ken Griffy Jr., probably wouldn't for any one else, and Tiger is no exception.. (But tell me KGJ had visits with the witch doctor and I'll change my mind real quick)

Your entire opinion is based on guilt by association. Is Derek Jeter a PED user? He was friends with Tiger AND A-Rod.

Again, this is so much more in my eyes than guilt by association... There were more than 50 visits in Tigers home, ugh why do I even bother.. I'm sure it's just me being biased again right?

Uhm, that's it. That's literally all you have, outside of you making things up by saying that you believe they put something "extra" back in with the PRP therapy.

Tiger worked with a doctor for PRP therapy. He worked with this doctor before it was revealed that he was dispensing PEDs. PRP therapy fits the injury and recovery he had. What "more" is there to it? Only what you make up because you "believe" it to be true.

So no, that's not just you being biased…

And here's the thing, too… If some day it's revealed Tiger did PEDs, it wouldn't change things about how people feel right now. Forget "beyond a reasonable doubt" needed in court cases, I'm just saying 50% is the threshold. If some day we learn that Tiger ordered PEDs from eBay under his wife's name and shot up in the port-a-johns at PGA Tour events, it would be just as unreasonable then to say he didn't do PEDs as it is to say now that he did.

It's tough or impossible to prove a negative, and your entire opinion is based on one period: guilt by association, and what you "believe" happened.

This thread should get locked IMO, since there is no remote chance that TW used PED it is pretty useless keeping a thread around to discuss his non use of it..

Then stop posting, dude. We are all well aware of your position on this.

[Mr. Desmond]

Eyad, you may be overcompensating for your earlier naivete concerning athletes and PEDs. We've all been there.

In Tiger's case, years have passed and all we've heard is ... (crickets).

It would be tough to keep this locked up with today's media and money thrown at people to "out" others.

[Gunther]

If he was taking PEDs they sure didn't work. He's had injuries since college and didn't bulk up any more than a normal fit guy going from his 20's to 30's.

Have you ever seen Raffy Palmeiro? How about ARod for that matter? Tiger is a smart guy, his goal wasn't to become Barry Bonds and grow a few head sizes. He needed something that gave him an edge mentally and physically and I think given his accomplishments, the era, his relationships, and his money, it is remarkably naive to think he never used some illegal substance at some point in his career. No mas for me on the topic because honestly it's not something that even bothers me anymore, although it used to. Guess I'm jaded.

[pistol99]

I can't speak for Tiger Woods, or even professional golf, but I can tell you that I trained at a gym with athletes from another sport.

Everyone who was a professional was on PEDs. It was an open secret.

As far as him not bulking up or having injuries... not all PEDs do the same. In fact, depending on what injuries he had, it might point to the positive use of PEDs. (For instance, it's amazing how many athletes tear their ACL compared to the general population - it's a very strong ligament usually. Certain PEDs upset the natural muscle strength to ligament strength though, hence pro wrestlers and football players mysteriously have weak ACLS.)

Or, ever wondered how Olympians seem to be diabetic at a higher rate than the normal populace? (Insulin grows muscle.)

I'm not saying one way or another, but professional athletes should be viewed with extreme scepticism.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

If he was taking PEDs they sure didn't work. He's had injuries since college and didn't bulk up any more than a normal fit guy going from his 20's to 30's.

Have you ever seen Raffy Palmeiro? How about ARod for that matter? Tiger is a smart guy, his goal wasn't to become Barry Bonds and grow a few head sizes. He needed something that gave him an edge mentally and physically and I think given his accomplishments, the era, his relationships, and his money, it is remarkably naive to think he never used some illegal substance at some point in his career.

No mas for me on the topic because honestly it's not something that even bothers me anymore, although it used to. Guess I'm jaded.

What a sad way to be a sports fan.  Why do you bother watching any sport?  I will continue to believe 'innocent until proven guilty' regardless of the way the media or forum members react to innuendo.

[Gunther]

What a sad way to be a sports fan.  Why do you bother watching any sport?  I will continue to believe 'innocent until proven guilty' regardless of the way the media or forum members react to innuendo.

Ha, you're right, I've thought about this myself. I'm a Red Sox fan, for example. There is no question in my mind Ortiz is a big time juicer and probably Pedroia too, along with others. Millar, Damon, obviously Manny. I still appreciate their championships, especially '04, but yeah, I don't feel as euphoric about them as I would since my perspective is heavily tainted by my suspicions. It is sad (not overly so) but waddayagonnado?

[Gboroman]

I think I have listed plenty of circumstantial evidence that is enough to convince many.. The strongest is the relationship with convicted PED peddlers who worked with other high class athletes like A Rod and others.. Along with the sheer number of visits and the nature of the treatments I for one am convinced and it has nothing to do with hating tiger..

The argument is tiger is above that, he respects the game.. Bullshit.. A Rod supposedly respected the game and so does Ortiz and Manny and many many more..

This is a matter of public opinion, I'm not trying nor do I care to prove anything in a court of law.. Sooner or later the truth will come out, but to say that for the people who believe he did PED don't have any ground to stand on is a little naive because of the history of PED and superstar athletes. And it isn't not like Tiger can stand on high moral ground and say that he he is above that, I'm sure he has no credibility in that sense, so I'm left with a whole bunch of cercumstantial evidence against his word.. Evidence wins..

Agreed.  There are plenty of other things listed in this thread that would lead one to be suspicious.  If there was hard proof that is public knowledge, then Tiger would already be banned.  So, it is just plain stupid to ask, "Where's your proof?"  OF COURSE, there is no proof that is available to the public.