Greg Norman Says Players Content with Top 20s over Wins

[billchao]

I don't think you have Norman's position correct, or at least not the way I interpreted it. I read his comments as there is a sense of complacency on tour. Many players are content to collect the paycheck and don't put in the work to rise to another level. I think that is an accurate statement and nothing to be vilified over.

This thread has gone on far longer than I thought it would have, but I disagree with this, which is why I disagree with Greg Norman. It's too damn hard to compete at the PGA Tour level on cruise control. Even Rory misses cuts. How good does a pro have to be in order to just go out there and still win with his "B" or "C" game, just from determination and grit? Guys who take it easy are either the ones with exemption status so they can relax and still qualify for tournaments in the first place, or they're the ones that lose their cards. There are lots of guys whose "A" games just aren't good enough to win consistently. I have a hard time believing it's because they're sheep.

[Abu3baid]

And yet I dislike Miller. I disagree with his analysis. I enjoy Chamblee and agree with him more times than not. You continue to present your opinions like they are facts.  Your opinions are not fact, and given that most everyone contributing to this thread disagrees with you, maybe you should re-evaluate your position.

I'm sorry, but that really isn't a compelling argument for him to change his position, ie the people contributing to the thread disagree and thus he should re-evaluate position? [quote name="Gunther" url="/t/80534/greg-norman-says-players-content-with-top-20s-over-wins/170_10#post_1116917"] I don't think you have Norman's position correct, or at least not the way I interpreted it. I read his comments as there is a sense of complacency on tour. Many players are content to collect the paycheck and don't put in the work to rise to another level. I think that is an accurate statement and nothing to be vilified over. I believe he said it while being questioned, it wasn't an unsolicited tweet as far as I know. Was there a touch of envy there? Sure, the purses today allow players to live a very wealthy lifestyle while toiling in relative mediocrity, that wasn't the case in his day. We've all heard older pros in interviews say stuff like, I saw Rory (insert the star) on the range and I knew I couldn't compete at that level anymore. All Norman is saying is that others probably feel that way too and I absolutely believe that is the case.[/quote] I tend to agree as well. I mentioned it before and I will mention it again: The guys on tour are there because of their talent (at least 95% of them) and not because they "work hard". A guy who is meddling in the middle of the web.com isn't going to be on tour if he all of a sudden did double sessions instead of the one he does.. Just like the guy in the middle of the tour isn't going to be off the tour if he started missing sessions. It just makes logical sense to me when someone says hey some of these guys are just happy to be there. It is a natural human instinct to get complacent when you are at the top of your profession. To some winning is everything, to others if they win its a bonus, but they aren't going to kill them selves on the range to do so, nor are they going to give up their time with their families to do it either. Norman isn't saying anything crazy, not in this case.

[jbishop15]

I'm sorry, but that really isn't a compelling argument for him to change his position, ie the people contributing to the thread disagree and thus he should re-evaluate position?

I tend to agree as well. I mentioned it before and I will mention it again:

The guys on tour are there because of their talent (at least 95% of them) and not because they "work hard". A guy who is meddling in the middle of the web.com isn't going to be on tour if he all of a sudden did double sessions instead of the one he does.. Just like the guy in the middle of the tour isn't going to be off the tour if he started missing sessions.

It just makes logical sense to me when someone says hey some of these guys are just happy to be there. It is a natural human instinct to get complacent when you are at the top of your profession. To some winning is everything, to others if they win its a bonus, but they aren't going to kill them selves on the range to do so, nor are they going to give up their time with their families to do it either. Norman isn't saying anything crazy, not in this case.

I'm sorry, but this post is totally ludicrous.

I have a problem with the word 'talent', but that aside, even someone like Phil Mickelson grinds their ass off every day.

And hell yes, if a Tour player stops practicing, he'll be off the Tour. The golf swing can go so fast and when you're under the kind of pressure these guys are, those little mistakes are magnified.

Plenty of people who get to the top of their profession get complacent, this is true. But I can guarantee you there is not a single professional golfer who is like that. They are independent contractors who are paid based on performance. They have no union, no medical insurance, nothing; they are totally dependent on their skills on the golf course to make money. So, if they got complacent, they'd be weeded out immediately. I can tell you if Rory was like 'the hell with it', he'd overtaken by those who are putting in the work.

Norman is notoriously full of himself and also full of shit, so it's not surprising that he talks trash about current players. It's a nice way to keep his name in the paper.

[billchao]

The guys on tour are there because of their talent (at least 95% of them) and not because they "work hard". A guy who is meddling in the middle of the web.com isn't going to be on tour if he all of a sudden did double sessions instead of the one he does.. Just like the guy in the middle of the tour isn't going to be off the tour if he started missing sessions.

I can't help but think you just made this up. How do you think they develop their talent? Pro golfers are just born and the ones who are destined to be on top are just going to be there, regardless of work ethic?

It just makes logical sense to me when someone says hey some of these guys are just happy to be there. It is a natural human instinct to get complacent when you are at the top of your profession. To some winning is everything, to others if they win its a bonus, but they aren't going to kill them selves on the range to do so, nor are they going to give up their time with their families to do it either. Norman isn't saying anything crazy, not in this case.

I can see that argument making sense if it's Sunday, and a guy is T-25th and too far behind the leader to have a reasonable shot at winning. Then, yea, of course they'd probably just coast to the end of the tournament, because the $ difference between 25th and 20th probably isn't worth the effort to them.

Everyone on the PGA Tour is giving up time with their families for their career.

[evan01]

No one is happy sitting 20 back. They all want to win but they are in a better place than you and I with our golf game.

[Gunther]

I'm beginning to think you guys are just disagreeing with Norman for the sake of it. He's not speaking from a place of ignorance, as we are. He knows hundreds of pro tour-quality golfers. If you believe that all 150 golfers with PGA cards wake up every day and say, I'm going to bust my ass today because I wanna be #1, you would be quite incorrect. The majority just want their cards for next year and are very, very happy to achieve that goal, which is an amazing accomplishment in its own right and nothing over which to be criticized. There may be 20 players on tour that have the drive to reach for #1, probably fewer. I believe this is all Norman was saying. What he resents, a little, is that #125 on tour is almost a millionaire today when in his day, he'd have to have a winter job to support his summertime gig.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

The guys on tour are there because of their talent (at least 95% of them) and not because they "work hard".

Already addressed by others above, but throw my hat in the ring of "this is ridiculous."

I'm beginning to think you guys are just disagreeing with Norman for the sake of it. He's not speaking from a place of ignorance, as we are. He knows hundreds of pro tour-quality golfers.

Norman isn't out on the Tour much these days. And just because we disagree with you (and Greg Norman) doesn't mean we're doing it "for the sake of it" nor does it mean we're doing it from a place of ignorance as you imply.

Seriously, how much is Greg out on Tour talking or working with the guys these days? He doesn't even play many Champions Tour events…

If you believe that all 150 golfers with PGA cards wake up every day and say, I'm going to bust my ass today because I wanna be #1, you would be quite incorrect. The majority just want their cards for next year and are very, very happy to achieve that goal, which is an amazing accomplishment in its own right and nothing over which to be criticized.

You're building a nice straw man there. Watch out for open flames.

For many they need to work their ass off to keep their PGA Tour card. Many won't ever become world #1 nor do they have the talent to do so. But… so what? That's not what Greg is saying.

There may be 20 players on tour that have the drive talent to reach for #1, probably fewer.

FTFY.

I believe this is all Norman was saying. What he resents, a little, is that #125 on tour is almost a millionaire today when in his day, he'd have to have a winter job to support his summertime gig.

I doubt Greg with his millions of dollars is weeping for the #125 guy in 1987.

---

I've been out on the Tour. These guys put in countless hours - in the gym, on the range, working constantly to do the best that they individually can. For some that might mean staying on Tour for 3-5 years. For others, they may nab a victory or two. Others might become multiple major winners, or stay on Tour for 15 years.

But they're ALL working their asses off.

[Phil McGleno]

Almost everyone on the PGA Tour these days works harder than Greg Norman worked in his day. He is full of it and looking back with his rose-colored glasses. Greg was apparently content to be #1 in a down cycle and reap the benefits without doing much to justify them. Even Rory has already surpassed - more than doubled - his major win total.

[Gunther]

Already addressed by others above, but throw my hat in the ring of "this is ridiculous." Norman isn't out on the Tour much these days. And just because we disagree with you (and Greg Norman) doesn't mean we're doing it "for the sake of it" nor does it mean we're doing it from a place of ignorance as you imply. Seriously, how much is Greg out on Tour talking or working with the guys these days? He doesn't even play many Champions Tour events…   You're building a nice straw man there. Watch out for open flames. For many they need to work their ass off to keep their PGA Tour card. Many won't ever become world #1 nor do they have the talent to do so. But… so what? That's not what Greg is saying. FTFY. I doubt Greg with his millions of dollars is weeping for the #125 guy in 1987. [rule] I've been out on the Tour. These guys put in countless hours - in the gym, on the range, working constantly to do the best that they individually can. For some that might mean staying on Tour for 3-5 years. For others, they may nab a victory or two. Others might become multiple major winners, or stay on Tour for 15 years. But they're ALL working their asses off.

[quote name="Phil McGleno" url="/t/80534/greg-norman-says-players-content-with-top-20s-over-wins/160_40#post_1116998"]Almost everyone on the PGA Tour these days works harder than Greg Norman worked in his day. He is full of it and looking back with his rose-colored glasses. Greg was apparently content to be #1 in a down cycle and reap the benefits without doing much to justify them. Even Rory has already surpassed - more than doubled - his major win total.[/quote] I just don't get the resentment of Norman here, perhaps there is something personal with which I am unaware. He speaks his mind, when asked. I respect and admire the guy for all that he has achieved and trust his instincts given his unquestionable experience. Nuff said from my end.

[jamo]

I just don't get the resentment of Norman here, perhaps there is something personal with which I am unaware. He speaks his mind, when asked. I respect and admire the guy for all that he has achieved and trust his instincts given his unquestionable experience. Nuff said from my end.

If I were a Tour golfer I would surely resent Greg Norman for calling me and my peers lazy. But me? I don't "resent" Greg Norman one iota.

[iacas]

I just don't get the resentment of Norman here, perhaps there is something personal with which I am unaware.

@Gunther , I don't know what you're talking about. Disagreeing with Greg Norman is not "resentment." It's disagreeing.

I don't resent the guy one bit. Not even a little.

If that's how you have to justify that someone disagrees with Greg in your mind - by telling yourself they "resent" Greg Norman - then so be it. But let's call it what it is - a lie you tell yourself.

He speaks his mind, when asked. I respect and admire the guy for all that he has achieved and trust his instincts given his unquestionable experience. Nuff said from my end.

I could say the same about him. And then add that, on this issue, I disagree with him.

[Gunther]

@Gunther , I don't know what you're talking about. Disagreeing with Greg Norman is not "resentment." It's disagreeing. I don't resent the guy one bit. Not even a little. If that's how you have to justify that someone disagrees with Greg in your mind - by telling yourself they "resent" Greg Norman - then so be it. But let's call it what it is - a lie you tell yourself. I could say the same about him. And then add that, on this issue, I disagree with him.

Ok, damn, you drew me back in. In fairness, I haven't heard the vitriol towards Norman coming from you, really only the disagreement that you describe. But many others here have lit him up, misconstruing what I believe his comments meant, calling him names, etc. This abuse he, Tiger, Phil, even Rory take, is part of the reason I think many on tour want no part of fame and fortune. Edit: And for future reference, your 3rd paragraph was again gratuitous and unnecessary.

[jbishop15]

I just don't get the resentment of Norman here, perhaps there is something personal with which I am unaware. He speaks his mind, when asked. I respect and admire the guy for all that he has achieved and trust his instincts given his unquestionable experience. Nuff said from my end.

I don't resent Norman at all. He's a dickhead with a big mouth, and I don't like him, for sure. But I don't feel any bitterness towards him.

Ok, damn, you drew me back in. In fairness, I haven't heard the vitriol towards Norman coming from you, really only the disagreement that you describe.

But many others here have lit him up, misconstruing what I believe his comments meant, calling him names, etc. This abuse he, Tiger, Phil, even Rory take, is part of the reason I think many on tour want no part of fame and fortune.

Edit: And for future reference, your 3rd paragraph was again gratuitous and unnecessary.

The only people who have "misconstrued" what he said are those defending him. He's the one being a jerk about present Tour players.

The abuse that Tiger and Rory take comes from totally different places than Norman, because where most of the criticism for Tiger and Rory is golf-related, Norman takes crap because he starts crap.

[iacas]

Edit: And for future reference, your 3rd paragraph was again gratuitous and unnecessary.

Disagree. You're painting everyone who disagrees as "resentful." It's not accurate.

[dkolo]

Ok, damn, you drew me back in. In fairness, I haven't heard the vitriol towards Norman coming from you, really only the disagreement that you describe. But many others here have lit him up, misconstruing what I believe his comments meant, calling him names, etc. This abuse he, Tiger, Phil, even Rory take, is part of the reason I think many on tour want no part of fame and fortune. Edit: And for future reference, your 3rd paragraph was again gratuitous and unnecessary.

I think I've been reasonable. I'd be happy to clarify anything about my dissertation-length thesis at this point in the argument for you. I have literally zero opinions of Norman I know more about his polo shirts at Costco than I do about him. I truly have no ill will for the guy outside of the paragraphs I've quoted earlier. I'm happy to address your concerns carefully and thoughtfully, if you feel my earlier responses were off the mark. To me this is academic, other than taking umbrage when people insinuate pros slack off despite evidence to the opposite. I don't care two whits about Norman and I'm kind of excited to hear him for the first time at length during the Open. I'd prefer a Gary Player, but FOX loves their Aussies. Anyway, I'm happy to engage. It's become a cross to bear because, in the words of Randall from XKCD "Someone on the Internet is WRONG!"

[Gunther]

Jeez, I didn't paint "everyone" in that vein. There have been a ton of nasty remarks about Norman today. I mentioned earlier that perhaps my bias on this topic caused me to perceive an earlier dog-pile incorrectly. If you guys can't recognize the vitriol thrown at Norman today in this very thread, I would suggest your bias is preventing it.

[jbishop15]

I think I've been reasonable. I'd be happy to clarify anything about my dissertation-length thesis at this point in the argument for you. I have literally zero opinions of Norman I know more about his polo shirts at Costco than I do about him. I truly have no ill will for the guy outside of the paragraphs I've quoted earlier. I'm happy to address your concerns carefully and thoughtfully, if you feel my earlier responses were off the mark. To me this is academic, other than taking umbrage when people insinuate pros slack off despite evidence to the opposite. I don't care two whits about Norman and I'm kind of excited to hear him for the first time at length during the Open. I'd prefer a Gary Player, but FOX loves their Aussies.

Anyway, I'm happy to engage. It's become a cross to bear because, in the words of Randall from XKCD "Someone on the Internet is WRONG!"

For real though his Costco shirts are great. They come in a variety of wonderful colors and are really comfortable.

Good clothesmith, kind of a jerk. Nobody's perfect.

[Ferguson]

Norman’s comments were of his choice and from his mind, and why he said it and what exactly he meant by saying it can only be explained by Norman. No argument can be made to that point. That is of course unless one or more of you vicariously share his life experiences, thoughts and feelings. If you do vicariously live as Greg "The Shark" Norman, please identify yourself so I can ask some you pointed questions about Chrissy Everett, and how President Clinton REALLY got injured at Norman’s villa. Anyway, it doesn’t matter if you’ve been on tour, or if you’re a 25 handicap, or a bagger of groceries down at the local food mart, the perception of Norman’s message via written word is altogether individual. At the end of the day, if someone doesn’t think much of Norman, there is a good chance they will disagree with anything he has to say. The article: Norman made an observation of certain players. The author states: “Perhaps Norman, who turned 60 in February, has a point -- or just a different frame of reference.” I don't think of Norman as a dickhead, arrogant yes, but not a dickhead. Peter Kessler is a dickhead. I believe these guys do work very hard, but I also believe the tour needs ditch diggers too (players that float in the middle or graze like sheep). Some players are not destined to win on a consistent basis no matter how hard they work. Presently we are nothing but a group of interested speculators, attempting to guess who will rise to the top. Whether it be a mental block, lack of focus, fear of success, too many distractions, the wrong woman or partner, lack of real need or they are not willing to make the enormous sacrifice will only be answered at the end of their careers.