Poll: Did Ernie Els ground his club in a hazard?

[Shorty]

When I think of cheaters, I think of Lee Janzen back in 2001 wiping that water from the fairway, or Casey Martin driving a cart.

The rules official didn't show up until AFTER Ernie's first try.

Please explain how Casey Martin is a cheat. Glib comments like this are going to make people think that the guy in your avatar is you. Smug and self-important.

The other thing is that you can replay it 100 times on your TV. You didn't see the actual club head in Els' case.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

When I think of cheaters, I think of Lee Janzen back in 2001 wiping that water from the fairway, or Casey Martin driving a cart.

The rules official didn't show up until AFTER Ernie's first try.

Please explain how Casey Martin is a cheat. Glib comments like this are going to make people think that the guy in your avatar is you. Smug and self-important.

The other thing is that you can replay it 100 times on your TV. You didn't see the actual club head in Els' case.

Don't take the bait.  His modus operandi is to go off tangent in a rant about something off topic.

[Ferguson]

It is off topic.  Don't take the bait.

It's very difficult to resist. But, resist I must. I think we all want to believe in our heart of hearts that Ernie did not ground the club. But part of me knows not every single golfer, pro or not, fully comprehends 100% of the rules. That’s why I carry a copy with me on the course. If he knew the GD rules, why in hell would he put the head of that wedge so damn close to the grass?

[Ferguson]

Please explain how Casey Martin is a cheat. Glib comments like this are going to make people think that the guy in your avatar is you. Smug and self-important. The other thing is that you can replay it 100 times on your TV. You didn't see the actual club head in Els' case.

I replayed it at least10 times, no more than 12 - for the record.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

It is off topic.  Don't take the bait.

It's very difficult to resist. But, resist I must.

I think we all want to believe in our heart of hearts that Ernie did not ground the club. But part of me knows not every single golfer, pro or not, fully comprehends 100% of the rules. That’s why I carry a copy with me on the course.

If he knew the GD rules, why in hell would he put the head of that wedge so damn close to the grass?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty

Please explain how Casey Martin is a cheat. Glib comments like this are going to make people think that the guy in your avatar is you. Smug and self-important.

The other thing is that you can replay it 100 times on your TV. You didn't see the actual club head in Els' case.

I replayed it at least10 times, no more than 12 - for the record.

Multi-quote please.

[jbishop15]

It's very difficult to resist. But, resist I must.

I think we all want to believe in our heart of hearts that Ernie did not ground the club. But part of me knows not every single golfer, pro or not, fully comprehends 100% of the rules. That’s why I carry a copy with me on the course.

If he knew the GD rules, why in hell would he put the head of that wedge so damn close to the grass?

Um.

[Shorty]

Don't take the bait.  His modus operandi is to go off tangent in a rant about something off topic.

Off topic? Like the topic which is the title of the thread?

You can't see Els' clubhead. However, I think he probably did ground it because it certainly seemed so.

Ferguson is the one who has gone off topic, labelling  someone a cheat, who is demonstrably not a cheat. Lambast him if you must.

Ferguson still didn't explain why Martin is a cheat.

$5000 to him in his Paypal account today if he can tell us why. I'll bet he resists that. Libel and defamation is easier than backing yourself up isn't it?

Why are you in his corner? You think it's OK to make false accusations about someone, do you? You are defending his right to say things that in the real world could find him on the sharp end of a lawsuit. I find that very odd.

[Ernest Jones]

[QUOTE name="boogielicious" url="/t/80944/poll-did-ernie-els-ground-his-club-in-a-hazard/36#post_1119289"]   Don't take the bait.  His modus operandi is to go off tangent in a rant about something off topic. [/QUOTE] Off topic? Like the topic which is the title of the thread? You can't see Els' clubhead. However, I think he probably did ground it because it certainly seemed so. Ferguson is the one who has gone off topic, labelling  someone a cheat, who is demonstrably not a cheat. Lambast him if you must. Ferguson still didn't explain why Martin is a cheat. $5000 to him in his Paypal account today if he can tell us why. I'll bet he resists that. Libel and defamation is easier than backing yourself up isn't it? Why are you in his corner?

Boogie was telling you not to take Ferguson's bait...but then you went and took all the bait. CHOMP, CHOMP, CHOMP! Hilarious. :doh:

[Shorty]

Boogie was telling you not to take Ferguson's bait...but then you went and took all the bait. CHOMP, CHOMP, CHOMP!

Hilarious.

If that's true, then it's a definite LOL. :-) And a facepalm for good measure.

Rereading the posts I am voting that the evidence is inconclusive, but I'll take your word for it. Thanks :-)

[Shorty]

Come on Ferguson........

[DeadMan]

If I post some reasons that Martin is a cheat, can I get the $5000, @Shorty t agree with them?

[Gunther]

The clubhead can't be seen because it was down in a hole behind the grass from the camera angle. Perfectly plausible and that's the way Els described it after the round. There was not a furtive look around by Els after he did it. If that happened it means he knew he messed up.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I don't remember seeing that, but again, I just turned it on during this incident and wasn't fully invested in what was going on at the time.

You are correct, and @Ferguson

does actually say "the video clearly shows" which we can all see isn't correct.  But sort of "in his defense" (and I use that phrase very loosely here), I will say that there is certainly a lot missing from the video.

Between 0:06 and 0:07 in the OP's video was a loooong period of time.  Perhaps what Ferguson is talking about happened during that time frame.  In fact, I would say that the practice swings during that period - the ones not shown on the video above - were the ones that most looked like club grounding to me.

Oh, and I also agree with this part of Ferguson's post:

I've never seen a tour pro take practice swings like that inside of a hazard.  Whenever they are considering playing from inside of a hazard, they always have their wits about them and remember to take those practice swings outside of the hazard.  Him getting flustered from the first poor shot is what I believe led to the fiasco that followed.  Note, though, that I'm still not willing to call him a cheater, but him even flirting with the ground in the hazard like that was just ... unusual, is all.

I saw it happen live on TV with my wife and son. We replayed it at least 10 times on DVR. We were actually having a discussion about his other possible options, when during one of replays I noticed it looked a hell of a lot like Ernie grounded the club. We have that zoom option on the TV. I still say it was questionable. It didn't look like the type of swing to test that grass. It takes a lot to call one of these guys a cheater. When I think of cheaters, I think of Lee Janzen back in 2001 wiping that water from the fairway, or Casey Martin driving a cart.

The rules official didn't show up until AFTER Ernie's first try.

It's only cheating if it's done to gain an advantage.  If you can tell me what advantage Ernie gained in that entire fiasco, then I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt.

The grass in that hazard was ankle deep - look at his back foot.  The clubhead never goes that deep in the practice swings or at address.  Also, the ground is sloping, so that makes it look like the club is deeper in the grass that it actually is.  Plus Ernie says there was a hole right there too.  All in all, Ernie gets my nod in this one.

[jamo]

If I post some reasons that Martin is a cheat, can I get the $5000, @Shorty ? Even if I don't agree with them?

No, because it's off topic and if you do it'll be deleted and you'll be restricted from the thread.

[Golfingdad]

It's only cheating if it's done to gain an advantage.  If you can tell me what advantage Ernie gained in that entire fiasco, then I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  The advantage was that he got an 8 on the hole instead of a 10.

The grass in that hazard was ankle deep - look at his back foot.  The clubhead never goes that deep in the practice swings or at address.

I disagree quite a bit with this.  When he takes his stance, you can just barely lose sight of the top of his shoe at his ankle, and when he drops the club down (he does this twice in the video in the OP, and there is also a lot missing from the video, including practice swings) even the ferrule disappears into the grass.  If I stand my wedge right next to my foot, those heights (top of shoe heel and ferrule of wedge) are not that different.

Plus Ernie says there was a hole right there too.  All in all, Ernie gets my nod in this one.

Yes, this is the key, with which I agree.  (I don't normally tend to rhyme, but I'll let it go this time ;))  There are no close ups or overheads or side views ... nothing to dispute what he says about there being a hole there, so no real reason to not believe him.

[dkolo]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  The advantage was that he got an 8 on the hole instead of a 10. I disagree quite a bit with this.  When he takes his stance, you can just barely lose sight of the top of his shoe at his ankle, and when he drops the club down (he does this twice in the video in the OP, and there is also a lot missing from the video, including practice swings) even the ferrule disappears into the grass.  If I stand my wedge right next to my foot, those heights (top of shoe heel and ferrule of wedge) are not that different. Yes, this is the key, with which I agree.  (I don't normally tend to rhyme, but I'll let it go this time ;))  There are no close ups or overheads or side views ... nothing to dispute what he says about there being a hole there, so no real reason to not believe him.

How much contact with the grass is needed for the penalty? If he's just brushing the grass, that's OK? My understanding was as long as he wasn't tearing up grass or resting the club head in there, it was kosher.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  The advantage was that he got an 8 on the hole instead of a 10.

I disagree quite a bit with this.  When he takes his stance, you can just barely lose sight of the top of his shoe at his ankle, and when he drops the club down (he does this twice in the video in the OP, and there is also a lot missing from the video, including practice swings) even the ferrule disappears into the grass.  If I stand my wedge right next to my foot, those heights (top of shoe heel and ferrule of wedge) are not that different.

Yes, this is the key, with which I agree.  (I don't normally tend to rhyme, but I'll let it go this time ;))  There are no close ups or overheads or side views ... nothing to dispute what he says about there being a hole there, so no real reason to not believe him.

How much contact with the grass is needed for the penalty? If he's just brushing the grass, that's OK? My understanding was as long as he wasn't tearing up grass or resting the club head in there, it was kosher.

As long as the club is not rested on the grass so that it supports the weight, then the club is not grounded.

[Golfingdad]

How much contact with the grass is needed for the penalty? If he's just brushing the grass, that's OK? My understanding was as long as he wasn't tearing up grass or resting the club head in there, it was kosher.

@Fourputt already answered your question, but I just go back to finding it odd that a tour pro even flirts with that gray area.  They always step out of the hazard to take their practice swings just as a precaution.  Because, in addition to not being allowed to ground your club in a hazard, you're also not allowed to test the condition of a hazard.  One could very easily argue that practice swings that were just brushing the grass but not touching the ground would qualify as testing the surface, which carries the same penalty.