Baltimore protests

[jamo]

You do realize that the vast majority of victims of police profiling and brutality are unlikely to step forward and register complaints with the same institution (read: The Man) who assaulted them to begin with? It's like rape and domestic assault, the cases we actually hear about are just a fraction of the tip of the iceberg.

Also: [QUOTE]Many Baltimoreans who reached similar settlements declined to be interviewed about the alleged police misconduct — with good reason. A clause in the city’s agreements prohibits any public statement about the incident that triggered the lawsuit. Limitations on “public statements shall include a prohibition in discussing any facts or allegations … with the news media” except to say the lawsuit has been settled, it states. The penalty for talking? City lawyers could sue to get back as much as half or more of the settlement.[/QUOTE] That doesn't change the numbers, but it changes how many of the stories you'll hear.

[Jeremie Boop]

I guess there's really nothing else I can say then, if you guys want to go along with the narrative that there is rampant and widespread violence from the police then that's what you will believe. Numbers show that a tiny fraction of police interactions involve abusive cops. I do think even that tiny fraction is unacceptable of course. I just go by what is known, not what is speculated, if there was a way to legitimately show that I'm wrong using numbers and facts then I'd have no problem admitting it. Either way, I've said my piece on this so I'll leave it to those with more to say.

[Ernest Jones]

Okey dokey.

[newtogolf]

I guess there's really nothing else I can say then, if you guys want to go along with the narrative that there is rampant and widespread violence from the police then that's what you will believe. Numbers show that a tiny fraction of police interactions involve abusive cops. I do think even that tiny fraction is unacceptable of course. I just go by what is known, not what is speculated, if there was a way to legitimately show that I'm wrong using numbers and facts then I'd have no problem admitting it. Either way, I've said my piece on this so I'll leave it to those with more to say.

I don't think it's rampant and widespread but I don't doubt cops patrol neighborhoods looking for guys that they've arrested before and make sure they know they're being watched.  I also doubt that completely innocent people are being harassed though there may be some guilt by association.

I used to be a bouncer and while that's not even close to being a cop you get a pretty good sense on who's out to have fun and who's out to cause trouble.  If a bunch of guys come in drunk and loud they are going to get more attention from the bouncers than the guys that are keeping things under control.  I'm sure the cops know the corners where drug deals are done, the areas where paroles hang out, etc and those are the areas they spend the most time patrolling so if you're hanging out in those areas your chances of having a negative experience with a cop are greater.

[RandallT]

I guess there's really nothing else I can say then, if you guys want to go along with the narrative that there is rampant and widespread violence from the police then that's what you will believe. Numbers show that a tiny fraction of police interactions involve abusive cops. I do think even that tiny fraction is unacceptable of course. I just go by what is known, not what is speculated, if there was a way to legitimately show that I'm wrong using numbers and facts then I'd have no problem admitting it. Either way, I've said my piece on this so I'll leave it to those with more to say.

http://www.killedbypolice.net

I've read a good sample of these, and my guess is that maybe 1 in 20 are where there is any question at all about the police officer's action.  Very unscientific, of course.  You might get a different ratio.

Roughly 1000 deaths per year, so my "1/20" means roughly 50 cases where someone dies and there is some iffy story by the police. In a country of 350 million.

Reason magazine (http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/09/more-than-1000-people-have-been-killed-b) talks a bit more about the simple web page, and in their partial 2013 (when they started), they documented several hundred more deaths than the official FBI reports showed (participation in FBI reports is not mandatory, apparently). So the federal stats are not really reliable.

If anyone knows of a similar data set for police brutality in general, bring it on. I'd love to see a compilation of police brutality stories in the media so we can get rough totals to make our assessments.

Judge for yourself if this is a rampant problem or not.

[Gunther]

You do realize that the vast majority of victims of police profiling and brutality are unlikely to step forward and register complaints with the same institution (read: The Man) who assaulted them to begin with? It's like rape and domestic assault, the cases we actually hear about are just a fraction of the tip of the iceberg.

Absolutely untrue.

[saevel25]

Okey dokey.

" The current US average projected police misconduct rate is an estimated 992.81 officers per 100,000 officers (mean 909.61 per 100k) as calculated using data gathered from the first 9 months of 2010."

That is 0.0099, or just under 1% of officers perform misconduct of some sort.

25% of those are excessive force, 4% is assault, 0.4% is murder. Basically 0.25% are excessive force. 1 out of every 400 cops use excessive force during 3/4ths the year.

Is excessive force by our law enforcement bad. Who knows, maybe a lot of those cases were because they thought the situation at hand wasn't as worse as it was. So they might have used excessive force when it wasn't warranted, but it wasn't done with malintent or with purpose just to injure someone. The question is, how much of this is accidental versus a vicious attack? How much of this is just the news blowing out of proportion because they feed on the negativity of the world and we assume things are worse because that is all we see now on the news.

[mmoan2]

"The current US average projected police misconduct rate is an estimated 992.81 officers per 100,000 officers (mean 909.61 per 100k) as calculated using data gathered from the first 9 months of 2010."

That is 0.0099%, or just under 1% of officers perform misconduct of some sort.

25% of those are excessive force, 4% is assault, 0.4% is murder. Basically 0.25% are excessive force. 1 out of every 400 cops use excessive force during 3/4ths the year.

Is excessive force by our law enforcement bad. Who knows, maybe a lot of those cases were because they thought the situation at hand wasn't as worse as it was. So they might have used excessive force when it wasn't warranted, but it wasn't done with malintent or with purpose just to injure someone. The question is, how much of this is accidental versus a vicious attack? How much of this is just the news blowing out of proportion because they feed on the negativity of the world and we assume things are worse because that is all we see now on the news.

That is a good question, but police brutality and even racial profiling and intimidation are not the major issues. It's the festering plight of the urban minority.

You've got to remember, though - those stats are US Census stats drawn from local police departments that had confirmed misconduct by acceptable law enforcement standards of today. Many people question the standards in the first place, especially poor, inner-city minorities.

[Ernest Jones]

[COLOR=333333]"[/COLOR][COLOR=333333]The current US average projected police misconduct rate is an estimated 992.81 officers per 100,000 officers (mean 909.61 per 100k) as calculated using data gathered from the first 9 months of 2010."[/COLOR] [COLOR=333333]That is 0.0099%, or just under 1% of officers perform misconduct of some sort. [/COLOR] [COLOR=333333]25% of those are excessive force, 4% is assault, 0.4% is murder. Basically 0.25% are excessive force. 1 out of every 400 cops use excessive force during 3/4ths the year. [/COLOR] Is excessive force by our law enforcement bad. Who knows, maybe a lot of those cases were because they thought the situation at hand wasn't as worse as it was. So they might have used excessive force when it wasn't warranted, but it wasn't done with malintent or with purpose just to injure someone. The question is, how much of this is accidental versus a vicious attack? How much of this is just the news blowing out of proportion because they feed on the negativity of the world and we assume things are worse because that is all we see now on the news.

My point is that when talking about abusive situations with a healthy dose of intimidation involving representatives of the state you cannot accept published numbers as the whole of the reality. The percentage of victims who are willing to speak out is nowhere near representative of the whole. We've seen that in rape and domestic abuse and to think the ratios are not similar (or worse) than what can be expected in the case of police misconduct is naive. Who are they going to complain to? The police??? I am in no way suggesting that all police, or even the thin majority, are bad but the perception the victims have will undoubtably make them think twice about lodging formal complaints. If they all lodged formal complaints the problem may even get fixed but it won't happen because the victims have no trust in the state and understandably so...

[saevel25]

My point is that when talking about abusive situations with a healthy dose of intimidation involving representatives of the state you cannot accept published numbers as the whole of the reality. The percentage of victims who are willing to speak out is nowhere near representative of the whole. We've seen that in rape and domestic abuse and to think the ratios are not similar (or worse) than what can be expected in the case of police misconduct is naive. Who are they going to complain to? The police???

What do you think the percentage is then?

10x more. 1 in every 10 cops use excessive force in 3/4ths the year? I think that is a bit high. 1 out of 20 cops? how about 1 out of 50 cops? I could ask my uncle who is a state highway patrolman in Ohio.

The minority group has this idea of what they think is happening. The cops probably have their own ideas on it. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle and isn't as clean cut an issue. Do I think victims don't want to speak out, yea. They probably do think nothing will change. That is also their fault for not speaking out. Do it anyways. Make a statement. Stop hiding.

Also, do minorities overblow the situation and claim to be a victim when they are not, yea. They have that chip on their shoulder and want to play the victim card because it allows them some leeway. So I wouldn't go jumping on the victim bandwagon here and make it seem like this is some sort of huge problem like sexual assault on college campuses. I don't think it is nearly as prevalent as that issue right now.

If you do look at excessive force based on location, urban cities, high minority areas, large populations have a lot of it compared to other areas. When you compare excessive force to per capita they are one of the lowest in the USA. I think a lot of cops are put in a tough bind with the way the culture is now. There are probably a lot of good cops that have to suffer with minorities making the general stereotypes about cops just as much as come cops stereotype about minorities. I think both sides are to blame.

[Gunther]

What do you think the percentage is then?  10x more. 1 in every 10 cops use excessive force in 3/4ths the year? I think that is a bit high. 1 out of 20 cops? how about 1 out of 50 cops? I could ask my uncle who is a state highway patrolman in Ohio.  The minority group has this idea of what they think is happening. The cops probably have their own ideas on it. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle and isn't as clean cut an issue. Do I think victims don't want to speak out, yea. They probably do think nothing will change. That is also their fault for not speaking out. Do it anyways. Make a statement. Stop hiding. Also, do minorities overblow the situation and claim to be a victim when they are not, yea. They have that chip on their shoulder and want to play the victim card because it allows them some leeway. So I wouldn't go jumping on the victim bandwagon here and make it seem like this is some sort of huge problem like sexual assault on college campuses. I don't think it is nearly as prevalent as that issue right now.  If you do look at excessive force based on location, urban cities, high minority areas, large populations have a lot of it compared to other areas. When you compare excessive force to per capita they are one of the lowest in the USA. I think a lot of cops are put in a tough bind with the way the culture is now. There are probably a lot of good cops that have to suffer with minorities making the general stereotypes about cops just as much as come cops stereotype about minorities. I think both sides are to blame.

+1

[dsc123]

What do you think the percentage is then?  10x more. 1 in every 10 cops use excessive force in 3/4ths the year? I think that is a bit high. 1 out of 20 cops? how about 1 out of 50 cops? I could ask my uncle who is a state highway patrolman in Ohio.  The minority group has this idea of what they think is happening. The cops probably have their own ideas on it. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle and isn't as clean cut an issue. Do I think victims don't want to speak out, yea. They probably do think nothing will change. That is also their fault for not speaking out. Do it anyways. Make a statement. Stop hiding. Also, do minorities overblow the situation and claim to be a victim when they are not, yea. They have that chip on their shoulder and want to play the victim card because it allows them some leeway. So I wouldn't go jumping on the victim bandwagon here and make it seem like this is some sort of huge problem like sexual assault on college campuses. I don't think it is nearly as prevalent as that issue right now.  If you do look at excessive force based on location, urban cities, high minority areas, large populations have a lot of it compared to other areas. When you compare excessive force to per capita they are one of the lowest in the USA. I think a lot of cops are put in a tough bind with the way the culture is now. There are probably a lot of good cops that have to suffer with minorities making the general stereotypes about cops just as much as come cops stereotype about minorities. I think both sides are to blame.

Where do your numbers come from? Are they nationwide? I'd imagine they are. In which case you have to consider that the rate is likely 0 in some places, and a lot higher in others, like sandtown. Also, what is misconduct? A reported case where an investigation resulted in a finding of misconduct? So we're excluding cases where the cops were absolved, correctly or not, and we're excluding cases where misconduct was not reported. Also, consider that if a particular neighborhood is patrolled by 25 different cops, how many have to be bad for the neighborhood to be oppressed? 2 or 3? of they're going around playing cowboy 5 days a weeek, that neighborhood might feel like it's under constant attack, even if 22 or 23 out of those 25 are great guys. siimilarly, how many bad acts does it take for people to feel like their under fire? Freddie Gray was killed once, but the whole neighborhood knows that if they make eye contact with a cop and then run, even if they'very done nothing wrong, the cops might sever their spine. You might sit there and say that only happened once, but that poisons the relationship with the entire neighborhood. I've had a Baltimore police officer advise me thay my "rights" include doing whatever an officer in uniform tells me to do, then illegally enter my home without my permisssion. nothing came of it, and other than the intangible violation of my rights, no harm was done. thats one of the very few bad interactions ive had woth cops but that's all it takes to sow resentment and distrust.

[dsc123]

And offered without comment, an article about the cops use of aerial surveillance during the protests. http://wapo.st/1zyPrJ2

[Golfingdad]

Absolutely untrue.

Great point. I have a hard time disagreeing with this "argument."

[Gunther]

Great point. I have a hard time disagreeing with this "argument."

How about, complete falsehood?

[Ernest Jones]

Absolutely untrue.

Ummm...is too?

[Gunther]

Ummm...is too?

lol, like it.

[newtogolf]

And offered without comment, an article about the cops use of aerial surveillance during the protests.

http://wapo.st/1zyPrJ2

That's a completely different discussion and thread as at this point as we have shouldn't have any expectations of privacy.  Snowden made it pretty clear along with my past contracting jobs when I lived in DC that privacy as we knew it ended when the internet came online for public use.  The use of planes, drones, street cameras along with all the technology for wiretapping and accessing your electronic footprint has turned the concept of privacy into a unicorn.