Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[Duff McGee]

Thanks for clarifying my point.  Most courses don't (unfortunately mine does) have trees in the middle of the fairway, so if you hit a tree under most circumstances you hit a bad shot and should be penalized for it regardless of your handicap.

There is a tree that is half fallen over on the 9th hole of my home course about 250 yards away right in the middle/right of the fairway with water on the left. Plus it bottle necks and is a longer par 4 so you want to hit driver off the tee. Oh and it's a two tiered green. Anyway, I always aim at that damn tree and usually hook the ball right in front of it and get a good roll out. I hit an absolute monster the other day and everyone was congratulating me as it was flying. We thought it was well past the tree but then BAM, more than halfway up I hit it rock solid and it bounces back. That ball could have been 5ft left or right and been the monster drive I needed to hit wedge on the approach. Instead I was left with 200 yards. Boring story but I get what you are saying. Plus, I know that @DrvFrShow knows this exact hole well lol.

[saevel25]

I hit an absolute monster the other day and everyone was congratulating me as it was flying. We thought it was well past the tree but then BAM, more than halfway up I hit it rock solid and it bounces back. That ball could have been 5ft left or right and been the monster drive I needed to hit wedge on the approach. Instead I was left with 200 yards.

Boring story but I get what you are saying. Plus, I know that @DrvFrShow knows this exact hole well lol.

Why are you hitting at a tree? Sorry, but hitting at a tree is bringing in the chance of hitting it. It's not unlucky that you hit the tree.

[Duff McGee]

Why are you hitting at a tree? Sorry, but hitting at a tree is bringing in the chance of hitting it. It's not unlucky that you hit the tree.

Haha I swear I am speaking a foreign language right now. I know it's not unlucky to hit that tree...I don't ever remember saying that it was unlucky but maybe I'm just losing my mind. I will say though that the odds of me hitting something I am aiming at over 250 is small. I had been playing with fire for months and never hit that thing but it finally bit me in the butt. The thing is that you have to carry probably at least 250 to hit the thick part of the tree and because I always drew the ball it would turn right in front of it and into the middle of the fairway. This time the ball went straight.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Hitting the tree may not be, but if the result causes the ball to be lost then we feel that way. But the reality is this happens to all golfers regardless of level. The tree or flag post doesn't care whether you or I or Tiger hit the ball. If the ball is lost, it is lost for all of us. Same with OB. The rule is the most equitable for the situation because we can't know for certain. There have been recent rounds where they knew almost for certain that a ball was in a tree. But they couldn't ID it so the player went back to the tee. Stinks but it happens.

This is all in the Principles of Golf. Every golfer should read this.

Thanks for clarifying my point.  Most courses don't (unfortunately mine does) have trees in the middle of the fairway, so if you hit a tree under most circumstances you hit a bad shot and should be penalized for it regardless of your handicap.

Sometime you hit a tree with a good shot trying to recover after a poor one.  Just nicking a top branch with a really good shot that 4 times out of 5 would clear the tree.  More bad luck.  Good luck and bad luck can play a part in just about any shot on the golf course.

[boil3rmak3r]

I agree that, if you can't find your ball, it would be unfair to others to assume you knew about where it went...

I think this rule should be strictly adhered to in any tournament play.  I don't think it'd be a bad idea for the USGA to point out pace of play issues and "suggest" that, in a casual round on a busy course, you and your playing partners consider taking a stroke and distance penalty.  If you choose that option, you must post the LOWER of par plus handicap or whatever score you make.  The precursor to this suggestion would be that a player should hit a provisional if there's any doubt about the original tee ball.

I realize the OP suggested changing the rule entirely, but maybe the USGA can print suggestions like this in the official ROG to try to address pace of play.  If there were suggestions like this, us amateurs wouldn't feel like cheaters if we chose the alternate method to finish out a hole during a casual round.

[Rulesman]

What I can't understand about those who say that when they didn't play a provisional (because it seemed obvious the ball would not be lost because they 'could see it on the fairway'), it significantly affects the PoP. How long does it take to realise the ball is not on the fairway? Is five minutes really necessary in that situation? How long does it really take to walk back quickly and play another?

And how many times does it happen during a round? If more than a couple, put the driver away.

Slow play has far more significant factors contributing to the problem.

[Duff McGee]

What I can't understand about those who say that when they didn't play a provisional (because it seemed obvious the ball would not be lost because they 'could see it on the fairway'), it significantly affects the PoP. How long does it take to realise the ball is not on the fairway? Is five minutes really necessary in that situation? How long does it really take to walk back quickly and play another? And how many times does it happen during a round? If more than a couple, put the driver away. Slow play has far more significant factors contributing to the problem.

Who said that it was the most significant factor?

[Rulesman]

Who said that it was the most significant factor?

I have no idea. I didn't but many posts in the thread seem to suggest it is significant.

In fact I don't think it is very significant at all; especially in the context of 5 hour rounds.

[boogielicious]

[QUOTE name="boogielicious" url="/t/83618/lost-ball-rule-is-stupid/390_30#post_1192156"] Hitting the tree may not be, but if the result causes the ball to be lost then we feel that way. But the reality is this happens to all golfers regardless of level. The tree or flag post doesn't care whether you or I or Tiger hit the ball. If the ball is lost, it is lost for all of us. Same with OB. The rule is the most equitable for the situation because we can't know for certain. There have been recent rounds where they knew almost for certain that a ball was in a tree. But they couldn't ID it so the player went back to the tee. Stinks but it happens. This is all in the Principles of Golf. Every golfer should read this.[/QUOTE] Thanks for clarifying my point.  Most courses don't (unfortunately mine does) have trees in the middle of the fairway, so if you hit a tree under most circumstances you hit a bad shot and should be penalized for it regardless of your handicap.

I've only had one get stuck in a tree. It was a palm tree in Florida. It was a casual round so I dropped and took the penalty. We were playing match play, so I conceded the hole.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

What I can't understand about those who say that when they didn't play a provisional (because it seemed obvious the ball would not be lost because they 'could see it on the fairway'), it significantly affects the PoP. How long does it take to realise the ball is not on the fairway? Is five minutes really necessary in that situation? How long does it really take to walk back quickly and play another?

And how many times does it happen during a round? If more than a couple, put the driver away.

Slow play has far more significant factors contributing to the problem.

Who said that it was the most significant factor?

Oh, geez,another red herring.  He never said it was the MOST significant factor.  Nor did anyone else.  You would do better to interact with and counter the arguments that people are ACTUALLY making than throwing out clever one liners that are completely irrelevant.

[Duff McGee]

Oh, geez,another red herring.  He never said it was the MOST significant factor.  Nor did anyone else.  You would do better to interact with and counter the arguments that people are ACTUALLY making than throwing out clever one liners that are completely irrelevant.

[quote name="Rulesman" url="/t/83618/lost-ball-rule-is-stupid/390#post_1192279"]What I can't understand about those who say that when they didn't play a provisional (because it seemed obvious the ball would not be lost because they 'could see it on the fairway'), it significantly affects the PoP. How long does it take to realise the ball is not on the fairway? Is five minutes really necessary in that situation? How long does it really take to walk back quickly and play another? And how many times does it happen during a round? If more than a couple, put the driver away. Slow play has far more significant factors contributing to the problem. [/quote] Who said that it was the most significant factor? It wasn't a red herring or a clever one liner. The implication of you read the sentence is that we are claiming that this is basically the end all, be all reason for slow play. Saying "slow play has far more significant factors contributing to this problem" is implying that we are are claiming it is basically a huge contributing factor and one, if not THE biggest reason. I was being polite but that is actually a straw man argument of you want to get technical on logical fallacies. But you chose to attack whereas I did not. I politely asked a question because, in fact, nobody made that claim....ever. That is the very definition of a straw man argument.

[DrvFrShow]

I thought we had this settled several pages back. The problem isn't the obvious potential lost ball. Hit a provisional. The problem is the one that's not obviously potentially lost - the one that you really did hit in the fairway that vanished: maybe it found a gopher hole? But in that case that's an abnormal ground condition and free drop - you just have to find the gopher hole. Good luck. Or in the tallish rough, but not too tall - it's the second cut: you just walked past it. You saw it go there. Everyone in your group saw it go there but it's gone. There's really no equitable solution except to screw the player for hitting a not too bad of a shot.

Casual round - just drop a ball and play on. Take a one stroke penalty if it makes you feel better about yourself. There's no USGA rules official looking over your shoulder. You probably broke the law a half dozen times during your drive to the golf course. I'm looking at you: multiple rolling stops, multiple speeding, failure to properly signal, tailgaiting, etc. You're worried about this?

Tournament play - If you didn't play a provisional, go back and rehit.

Simple.

Now on some courses you can actually find your ball because they did a really good job of mowing down the rough and clearing out the underbrush in the woods! Bravo! You really have to screw up to lose a ball. I love courses like this.

[Duff McGee]

So I've decided to unsubscribe to this thread. I just don't want any hard feelings between anyone because of the comments here. I like this website a lot and there are a ton of great people. I hate arguing about things like this. Thanks everyone for your contributions to this thread.

[Rulesman]

Saying "slow play has far more significant factors contributing to this problem" is implying that we are are claiming it is basically a huge contributing factor and one, if not THE biggest reason.

No. I am suggesting that it is not high on the list of contributing factors. Others have implied otherwise.

Read my first sentence again. You will see I was querying any suggestion it was important re PoP.

"What I can't understand about those who say ....... it significantly affects the PoP"

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Oh, geez,another red herring.  He never said it was the MOST significant factor.  Nor did anyone else.  You would do better to interact with and counter the arguments that people are ACTUALLY making than throwing out clever one liners that are completely irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

What I can't understand about those who say that when they didn't play a provisional (because it seemed obvious the ball would not be lost because they 'could see it on the fairway'), it significantly affects the PoP. How long does it take to realise the ball is not on the fairway? Is five minutes really necessary in that situation? How long does it really take to walk back quickly and play another?

And how many times does it happen during a round? If more than a couple, put the driver away.

Slow play has far more significant factors contributing to the problem.

Who said that it was the most significant factor?

It wasn't a red herring or a clever one liner. The implication of you read the sentence is that we are claiming that this is basically the end all, be all reason for slow play.

Saying "slow play has far more significant factors contributing to this problem" is implying that we are are claiming it is basically a huge contributing factor and one, if not THE biggest reason.

I was being polite but that is actually a straw man argument of you want to get technical on logical fallacies. But you chose to attack whereas I did not. I politely asked a question because, in fact, nobody made that claim....ever. That is the very definition of a straw man argument.

The bolded statement is irretrievable, illogical, nonsense, but typical of how you have argued in this thread.

Someone disagrees with you and all of a sudden you claim everything you have said is being called stupid..

Someone says that pace is play is only a minor aspect of the lost ball rule (after reams of messages about the lost ball rule and pace of play from the anti-rule crowd) and you claim he is saying someone said it is the most significant factor.

It is a very unpleasant way to argue.  And your disingenuous explanations really don't fool anyone.  "I was just asking a question" is just, well, lame.  Last time you said it was just hyperbole.  Maybe that is not your best tactic

[RGoosen]

I have more fun taking a dump than reading responses with people arguing. This thread has deteriorated rapidly. I wish I knew how to "unsubscribe" from this thread with my cell phone.

[Golfingdad]

I have more fun taking a dump than reading responses with people arguing. This thread has deteriorated rapidly. I wish I knew how to "unsubscribe" from this thread with my cell phone.

Are you saying you don't do both at the same time?? ;) The way I "unsubscribe" from threads after I lose interest is I just don't click on them anymore. :)

[RGoosen]

Are you saying you don't do both at the same time?? ;) The way I "unsubscribe" from threads after I lose interest is I just don't click on them anymore. :)

It sends alerts if I'm subscribed. To take a line from Seinfeld "my phone isn't flagged" :)