The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[Dave2512]

Two weeks ago, my brother and I played 36 holes at Pole Creek, starting at 11 AM.  We had to play through a half dozen slower groups, and neither of us broke 90 either round.  We both had lost balls, we both had several errant shots that took 2 or 3 minutes of searching to find the ball.  There were several long drives between green and tee.  Despite that we still averaged 10 minutes per hole, finishing each 18 hole round in 3 hours.  After taking over an hour for a lunch and rain break between the rounds, we were still headed back to my sister's house by 6:30.  Basically we both played like crap and still kept a pace of 10 minutes per hole.

My wife has never broken 100 in her life, yet she is usually the one trying to hurry me when we play together, and I'm not slow.  Your contention that bad golfers are the culprit is simply not valid.  The problem is slow players, and slow players are usually just uneducated in the processes required to play at a good pace.  Some of the slowest players I've known are mid to low double digit handicappers (10-15 caps), experienced because I played in the same flights with them in 22 years of tournaments, and often in casual rounds too.  I played with guys who I wanted to shoot and bury so that I could get on with it, and most of them were not inexperienced players, nor were they bad players.  They were just slow.  They did nothing quickly, from the moment they stepped onto the course.

Another group that tended to play slowly was high school players, trying out for the team or during team play.  They were not only encouraged to play "deliberately" by their coaches, but they were some of the slowest walkers I ever saw on a golf course.  I think that they learned to walk strolling at the mall gawking at the girls, and that same pace seemed to carry over to the golf course.  These kids were usually good to outstanding players, but when they teed off, I radioed the ranger to keep an eye on them because I knew we were going to have an issue.

I get it. But my post you decided to rail against described dawdling, I mentioned it several times, not so much the amount of strokes. In fact I called them oblivious. You know I don't consider myself to be an elite golfer or anything and you mentioned in a different thread about fast play it takes less time to take less strokes. You don't need to be convinced of this.

[iacas]

I think the pace of play could really benefit with beginners playing the longest club they can control on the course. If this is your 7 iron, play from the forward tees, and tee off with it. Play it down the fairway, then hit your wedge onto the green of your par 4. You'll probably make a bogey if you can two putt.

a) That doesn't really work. If you can't hit a 5 hybrid, or a driver teed up, you can't hit your 7I solidly all the time (or even most of the time) either.

b) It's fun to hit driver, as you pointed out.

I think you just confirmed what I originally said.  Most foursome can't play eighteen in 2 hours 6 minutes.  If they are all shooting par that is approximately 26 seconds a shot (average of course) and I doubt most foursome consist of scratch golfer. More likely the are averaging more than  90 strokes and that is about 21 seconds a shot.  That interval has to include all activity like looking for balls, walking to the ball, traverse between holes, and all the other things that go on in a golf outing beside hitting the ball.  QED

That was already busted for the bad math that's in there. Besides, some tap-ins and some shots take very little time at all.

Look, @mvmac and I can attest to two things:

1. He and I can often play rounds of golf on unfamiliar golf courses, feel like we're totally dawdling (because we don't want to catch up to other people), and take 2:30 to 3:15. If you cloned two of us you'd add about a minute a hole to that number.
2. Golfers are really, really bad at playing quickly. They don't do so many of the simple little things: leaving your clubs in the right place, taking the flagstick out in the right order (or being ready to put it back in), not driving ahead and to the side and preparing to play while someone farther back is playing… etc.

But now you have a full course (rush hour) and the first foursome that has an accident, like a lost ball or an unexpected OB or needs to play out of the wrong fairway, etc.  will slow the entire cadre of golfers behind them down.  So while it does take a golfer cause the slowdown, the course is not set up to allow for  this and it will happen with 144 golfers on the course most of whom (according to the golf foundation) can't break 100 on the card.

If you lose a ball and have to look for it and take five minutes… then you have a gap that you can catch up. Yes, there's still going to be a bit of a ripple effect, but you can make up the time because of the gap you create.

You seem to believe bad play can be accomplished in a quick fashion. To that I say it's not common.

It may not be common, but it's pretty easy to shoot 110 on most courses pretty quickly. Bad play is not an excuse (nor is good play or "this is a serious match."). When I first started playing golf I played awfully fast. I never ran, but I walked quickly because I knew I'd take more time to hit more shots than most.

In talking with @mvmac this week we determined that we just do things that make us fast. We just do them… we don't have to think about them. If we forget our driver and the tee is nearby, the other one will get the flag and we'll literally jog over to get our driver. We goofed so we try to minimize the goof. Stuff like that.

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To be clear… 3.5 hour rounds is not rushing . Yet a lot of people seem to think that it is…

[newtogolf]

To be clear… 3.5 hour rounds is not rushing. Yet a lot of people seem to think that it is…

I'm curious how long the singles matches for the 2015 Newport Cup took.  Did they finish in under 3.5 hours as foursomes?

[Big C]

I'm curious how long the singles matches for the 2015 Newport Cup took.  Did they finish in under 3.5 hours as foursomes?

No. We finished in 4:05 I believe.

[Golfingdad]

I'm curious how long the singles matches for the 2015 Newport Cup took.  Did they finish in under 3.5 hours as foursomes?

5 rounds total, 3 that included 4 guys all playing their own ball and 2 with four guys only playing 2 balls. The first four ball round took us all 4:30. No excuses but we were tentative, nervous, and just slow. Our bad. Next Round was foursomes, and my group (with Bechambo, savvyswede and jbishop15) finished in 3:05. The other groups got stuck behind regular members so they could t keep up. Next morning was another fast alternate shot round (3:20 I believe) and then the afternoon four balls were about 4:15. Saturday singles in foursomes were, like Colin said, 4:05. Not great, but bright side is that while playing for competition, we all improved with each passing round. :)

[mvmac]

Look, @mvmac and I can attest to two things:

He and I can often play rounds of golf on unfamiliar golf courses, feel like we're totally dawdling (because we don't want to catch up to other people), and take 2:30 to 3:15. If you cloned two of us you'd add about a minute a hole to that number.

Golfers are really, really bad at playing quickly. They don't do so many of the simple little things: leaving your clubs in the right place, taking the flagstick out in the right order (or being ready to put it back in), not driving ahead and to the side and preparing to play while someone farther back is playing… etc.

In talking with @mvmac this week we determined that we just do things that make us fast. We just do them… we don't have to think about them. If we forget our driver and the tee is nearby, the other one will get the flag and we'll literally jog over to get our driver. We goofed so we try to minimize the goof. Stuff like that.

To be clear… 3.5 hour rounds is not rushing. Yet a lot of people seem to think that it is…

Right, I can keep a good pace of play and not "rush" because I'm either at or moving towards my ball. I'm getting my yardage, selecting my club, making practice swings while the other players are getting ready or playing their shots. My ball is in the air within 20-30 seconds of the last guy hitting. I don't sit in the cart, watch someone else and wait for them to drive me to my ball. Other than tee shots I rarely watch what other players are doing. I'll watch to see where their balls go but I don't pay close attention before they hit because I'm doing my stuff and getting ready to play.

I grew up playing like this so it's just what I know. Doing this allows me to still move at a leisurely pace while playing fast.

[iacas]

Right, I can keep a good pace of play and not "rush" because I'm either at or moving towards my ball. I'm getting my yardage, selecting my club, making practice swings while the other players are getting ready or playing their shots. My ball is in the air within 20-30 seconds of the last guy hitting. I don't sit in the cart, watch someone else and wait for them to drive me to my ball. Other than tee shots I rarely watch what other players are doing. I'll watch to see where their balls go but I don't pay close attention before they hit because I'm doing my stuff and getting ready to play.

I grew up playing like this so it's just what I know. Doing this allows me to still move at a leisurely pace while playing fast.

Right, @newtogolf , as fast as many of the players in the Newport Cup were, they often didn't do the simple things @mvmac and I do naturally.

I wonder if there's some correlation to growing up playing golf rounds where you carry your bag and are expected to get around the golf course in three hours or so and being fast as an adult. I think @mvmac and I had similar experiences in our formative (golf playing) years. It's different if you're introduced to golf by playing four+ hour rounds in carts.

[newtogolf]

Right, @newtogolf, as fast as many of the players in the Newport Cup were, they often didn't do the simple things @mvmac and I do naturally.

I wonder if there's some correlation to growing up playing golf rounds where you carry your bag and are expected to get around the golf course in three hours or so and being fast as an adult. I think @mvmac and I had similar experiences in our formative (golf playing) years. It's different if you're introduced to golf by playing four+ hour rounds in carts.

I'm sure the pressure of the challenge had an impact on pace of play as well.  The reason I asked is if some of the best golfers here in TST aren't getting a round completed in 3.5 hours there's no ways guys at my handicap are going to.  I played in my new home clubs club championship today and the round took 5.5 hours.  You would have thought we were playing for $1M given how long they took to hit each shot and forget about how much time they wasted on the greens.  I literally conceded my match today because I couldn't handle another 5+ hour round tomorrow.

I don't think people realize when they are playing slow, because when the club pro rode and ranger rode out to get them to speed up play they seemed shocked that they were being accused of slow play.   I think part of the problem is most of these guys were retired and got accustomed to playing the course when it's not busy so they developed some really bad pace of play habits that are intolerable on weekends and busy times.

[Dave2512]

You never know. I actually had the group in front of us apologize for being slow as we unloaded in the parking lot. The woman in the group said she was tired for the last few holes. I kind of felt bad we pushed them but the group we passed on hole 4 caught us on 17 and I hadn't seen them since. Seems like everyone creaks to a halt by 15. I got stiff waiting.

[Lihu]

Had a similar experience, but didn't actually feel it was slow? I must have hit into them, as my partner indicated on a couple or few holes? I just said it wasn't slow at all, and it was a wonderful course.

[mvmac]

I'm sure the pressure of the challenge had an impact on pace of play as well.  The reason I asked is if some of the best golfers here in TST aren't getting a round completed in 3.5 hours there's no ways guys at my handicap are going to.  I played in my new home clubs club championship today and the round took 5.5 hours.

Wow that's horrible. I think anyone can play in under 4 hours, it's really just comes down to understanding what ready golf is.

[iacas]

I'm sure the pressure of the challenge had an impact on pace of play as well.  The reason I asked is if some of the best golfers here in TST aren't getting a round completed in 3.5 hours there's no ways guys at my handicap are going to.

I don't know that I agree with that. Golfers playing in a team event they've been looking forward to for almost a year played in about 4 hours every time. In an event that meant something, with team play, and I can attest to how difficult it was to find the golf balls in the rough sometimes (bermuda type - it sinks to the bottom easily).

They were playing 7000 yards, too. Because matches were close, not many people had to pick up on many holes, either.

Yet, even as I wrote before… they could have played a fair amount faster. Nobody thinks they're slow. But from where @mvmac and I were sitting, some people were "medium" players only. Very few "fast" players out there (and I don't mean rushing for the sake of rushing - I mean legit fast players).

I don't think people realize when they are playing slow, because when the club pro rode and ranger rode out to get them to speed up play they seemed shocked that they were being accused of slow play. I think part of the problem is most of these guys were retired and got accustomed to playing the course when it's not busy so they developed some really bad pace of play habits that are intolerable on weekends and busy times.

I think that's a fair point.

[CR McDivot]

Get over it!

3:30 is fast, probably pressuring those in front who likely have no where to go as there are groups in front.

3:45 is quick, 4:00 to 4:15 is about right... and has been for decades.

Quit whining and enjoy your game without being an a** to the others o n the course!

[jcjim]

When you're used to playing rounds in under 3 hours and then they start taking 5 hours golf get to be a pain. I haven't played on the weekend in decades.

[Moppy]

Get over it!

3:30 is fast, probably pressuring those in front who likely have no where to go as there are groups in front.

3:45 is quick, 4:00 to 4:15 is about right... and has been for decades.

Quit whining and enjoy your game without being an a** to the others on the course!

Ha ha ha ha! I can't believe you came back for more! I just would rather some of these guys were out of my life, so I let them go.

For example the guy above who played through six groups. How much did he slow up the general pace? Who cares!?! What was important was that *he* never experience the frustration of having to accommodate a fellow human being on the course!

[MrFlipper]

I wonder if there's some correlation to growing up playing golf rounds where you carry your bag and are expected to get around the golf course in three hours or so and being fast as an adult. I think @mvmac and I had similar experiences in our formative (golf playing) years. It's different if you're introduced to golf by playing four+ hour rounds in carts.

Absolutely there is. When you learn to play carrying your bag you have to do all the small things quickly (or not at all) because to catch up requires running with your bag. That gets old really quickly. For me, I learned to play with a fast scratch golfer that didn't wait for me, if I was slow I'd look up and see him up by the green. It was keep up or don't play with him. Since carts were considered only by folks with serious health issues, I chose to play faster and keep up.

I believe folks in carts these days (and who learned to play in carts) have at least a subconscious feeling that if they are a little slower they can just drive faster and catch up quickly, so no big deal. And since pace of play is much slower these days than my formative years that's probably true (at least for their group, but not for the now delayed folks behind them).  And they have little frame of reference for what playing at a good pace really means.

But for someone who grew up walking/carrying (and still play that way), it seems like too much of "hurry up and wait". No rhythm at all, not good for my golf game. I avoid carts like the plague, unless I have no choice.

[RGoosen]

Get over it! 3:30 is fast, probably pressuring those in front who likely have no where to go as there are groups in front. 3:45 is quick, 4:00 to 4:15 is about right... and has been for decades. Quit whining and enjoy your game without being an a** to the others on the course! :censored:

"4:15 about right for decades" Funny how the biggest complaint in golf is slow w/ the gold standard max time set at 4:15. You celebrate the 4:15 round like it something to be proud of. While you strive for mediocrity the majority of others behind you would like to play in 4 hours or less. Just because you "can" drive slow in the left lane in some states while traffic backs up behind you, doesn't mean you should do it.

[pumaAttack]

I can play much much faster if I walk versus a cart.

A cart really slows down play, unless there is large gaps between holes.