The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[Jon Hoover]

Quote:

Fast play is better for you, so everybody has to conform to that.  That is still your argument.   You have yet to read that I play fast, I am just against golfers telling other golfers how to play their own game.   And yes I have thought that, it happened last Saturday.  I was playing with a friend and finished our round in under 4 hours.  I thought it went by too fast and was enjoying my time on the course.  I am sorry you can't appreciate being on the golf course but that doesn't mean everybody else has to rush to accommodate your race track philosophy.

Oh ya you sound like your lighting up the course on fire with your fast play. Will golf die, don't think I said that but you can keep putting words in my mouth to make yourself feel better if you want. I don't know about in your area but in the last few years I've seen many courses close and in that time not one has opened up.

I've realized their is no sense talking to you anymore as you are already reserved to your predisposed notions that you are right with your pace and everyone should follow in line good luck with that.

[mvmac]

You are missing the point.  Why do certain people get to depict how other golfers play their own games?  Why do they have to speed up play during a leisure round?  If you hate slow play, go at times where the course is more open or join a private course.  Do not expect other people to change their ways for you.

Because slow play is a problem in golf.

Also keeping a good pace of play doesn't mean you have rush or move "fast", it just means you use common sense and play ready golf. There is no reason you can't play leisure rounds at or under 4 hours. I can't remember the last time I didn't move at a leisure pace when playing golf.

LOL.

You think a 70 BILLION dollar industry is going to die because of slow play??!

Come on, you know that's not what @Jon Hoover posted.

The study said #1 obstacle to growing the game.

And you're calling other people extreme?

[pumaAttack]

Umm, he said growing the game, not killing the game. Might want to read what actually posted

Your argument can easily be thrown back right at you. Why should slow golfers force faster golfers to conform to slow play?

Nope, but they could let golfers play through. They could pick up the pace. They could just pick up and move onto the next hole if they took a lot of strokes. If you keep a USGA handicap, pick up after your ESC because any more strokes don't count towards the handicap anyways.

Is it enjoyable actually finishing out a hole when you take 10 strokes and are holding up both your own group and other groups? Does it really matter?

Still, in the end your argument can be right back at you with regards to slow golfers. Honestly I find most people want to play fast. Slow golfers are in the minority here.

In the end golfers should be able to finish a round in or at 4 hours.

First, he said "keeping the game alive" so maybe you need to read what he actually posted?

Secondly, that is my whole point.  Why does one group of golfers get to depict how the others play?  I have stated a play fast but I don't let slow golfers bother me.  I am out there to have fun and enjoy the course, not to run a race.

[Lihu]

First, he said "keeping the game alive" so maybe you need to read what he actually posted?

A 2005 study by former USGA technical director Frank Thomas found slow play to be the No. 1 obstacle to growing the game.

This was the original quote as far as I can see, and it's in large print too.

[pumaAttack]

Oh ya you sound like your lighting up the course on fire with your fast play. Will golf die, don't think I said that but you can keep putting words in my mouth to make yourself feel better if you want. I don't know about in your area but in the last few years I've seen many courses close and in that time not one has opened up.

I've realized their is no sense talking to you anymore as you are already reserved to your predisposed notions that you are right with your pace and everyone should follow in line good luck with that.

What is the opposite of keeping something alive?  Which is the exact phrasing you used.  Maybe read your posts more clearly next time?

Again, have you read any of my posts or do you just jump on a one word.  I do play fast, ready golf.  I am not out to convert slow golfers into race cars, that is all I am saying.

Let people enjoy the game as they see fit.

[Fourputt]

From what I've read the alternate point of view is worst cast scenario (the max published POP) is acceptable as long as you don't exceed it. Which is fine with me as long as people are moving without delay. On a busy course I am fine with that. But it's a rare day we don't look ahead and see people dawdling.

The trouble is, when most courses set the pace of play with dawdling built in, too many players decide it's okay to play slow and dawdle as long as they stay within that pace, rather than ignoring the clock and playing as fast as they can comfortably - or most important, trying to keep up with the group in front of them.  Courses which set slow pace of play expectations are actually promoting slow play.  It's almost a guarantee that on a busy course, every group following those first players who hit the pace right on the mark will slip over the mark.  I saw it too often when I was in the starter booth.  A slow group comes in right on the mark but with a hole open ahead of them, and the next group is 10 minutes later, etc, losing an additional minute or two to the desired pace for every following group.  it takes very little time for the course to bog down to a 4:45+ pace for the remainder of the day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

What "alternate point of view"?  One that says slow is okay?

You do know people move at different paces right?

Why do they have to conform to your pace?  Why don't you conform to theirs instead?

What makes you right and them wrong?   Golf is supposed to be a recreational activity to be enjoyed and for many people that means a slower pace than everyday life.   Some people are enjoying the weather, the outdoors, etc. and don't feel the need to rush through every shot likes its a race.

Maybe you need to take a step back and enjoy your surroundings instead of racing to the finish line.

As long as a group is keeping up with the guys in front of them I have no issue.  When I'm waiting on them and there is nobody else in sight, then it's pretty easy to pinpoint the problem.  I've never raced on a golf course, so don't give me that crap.  I play golf when it's time to play golf, and I shoot the bull and wash my ball and all of the other little things during the normal breaks in the action, and that's what slow players don't do.

I have plenty of time to enjoy my surroundings.  Isn't 3½ to 4 hours enough time?  If not, There are lots of great hiking trails just west of Denver where taking your time and communing with nature is encouraged.

[RFKFREAK]

Is it enjoyable actually finishing out a hole when you take 10 strokes and are holding up both your own group and other groups? Does it really matter?

Well, I don't know about you but I really like to see how high a number I can put up on a hole where everything is going completely wrong.

[pumaAttack]

Because slow play is a problem in golf.

Also keeping a good pace of play doesn't mean you have rush or move "fast", it just means you use common sense and play ready golf. There is no reason you can't play leisure rounds at or under 4 hours. I can't remember the last time I didn't move at a leisure pace when playing golf.

Come on, you know that's not what @Jon Hoover posted.

The study said #1 obstacle to growing the game.

And you're calling other people extreme?

Who exactly is feeling the problem in golf?  The slow players or the fast players?  Couldn't a slow player say the exact same thing about your pace?  That they can't enjoy golf because they have to rush to keep up?  That they feel stressed instead of relaxed?  Why is your way right for the universal world of golf?

Read his first line, he said killing off the game.  I refuted that asinine comment with my own.  His study is 10 years old now too, hardly great proof.

This was the original quote as far as I can see, and it's in large print too.

Read the sentence before the large print.  ;)

[pumaAttack]

As long as a group is keeping up with the guys in front of them I have no issue.  When I'm waiting on them and there is nobody else in sight, then it's pretty easy to pinpoint the problem.  I've never raced on a golf course, so don't give me that crap.  I play golf when it's time to play golf, and I shoot the bull and wash my ball and all of the other little things during the normal breaks in the action, and that's what slow players don't do.

I have plenty of time to enjoy my surroundings.  Isn't 3½ to 4 hours enough time?  If not, There are lots of great hiking trails just west of Denver where taking your time and communing with nature is encouraged.

Why do you put a time limit on your hobby?  If you are so busy maybe golf shouldn't be your priority for that day.

I could say the same thing to you.  Maybe you should only play 9 holes so you can get back to whatever else is so important to you that day.  I have never seen a scorecard list pace of play at 3:30.  Maybe you should go for a quick hike instead of golf?

[Dave2512]

These are pretty ignorant statements.

Just because you don't feel the "rush" of going through groups does not mean it doesn't affect other groups.   You hitting up on groups, rushing to the next tee and breathing down their necks does affect their game and their leisure time.

And when a twosome cuts in front of every group that surely affects the entire course.  Maybe you don't feel it but it happens.  Your playing through slower groups just slows down the pace of play for the rest of the groups as they wait for you.  Do that for a few holes and the build up, waiting for you, grows.

So basically what you are saying it is fine because you personally never feel the affect....

Here's the thing when groups back up behind a slow group everyone behind the slow group experiences people running up on them and waiting directly behind them. The problem then becomes people must sit in spot just to maintain spacing and things slow to the pace of the slowest group.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

This was the original quote as far as I can see, and it's in large print too.

Read the sentence before the large print.  ;)

I see that, but the say it's worded it looks like he means what is in the bold text.

In this context "keeping the game alive" kind of implies for future generations?

[pumaAttack]

I see that, but the say it's worded it looks like he means what is in the bold text.

In this context "keeping the game alive" kind of implies for future generations?

What is the opposite of keeping something alive?

The answer is letting it die.  If you don't keep something alive, for future generations or the present, the object dies...

I am saying its an asinine statement to think golf will die because of slow play.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I see that, but the say it's worded it looks like he means what is in the bold text.

In this context "keeping the game alive" kind of implies for future generations?

What is the opposite of keeping something alive?

The answer is letting it die.  If you don't keep something alive, for future generations or the present, the object dies...

I am saying its an asinine statement to think golf will die because of slow play.

Nah, it's just one of the reasons, possibly the "number one" reason?

[pumaAttack]

Nah, it's just one of the reasons, possibly the "number one" reason?

Golf, a $70,000,000,000 industry is not dying because of slow play...  If anything that shows the courses are too full and we need more.  Hardly the same idea of dying...

And @Fourputt

Park Hill GC which is 6500 yards, lists their pace of play at 4:30.  And you think its right and better to play an hour faster than their suggested pace of play??

[mcanadiens]

It's starting to sound a bit extreme here. A bit defensive as well. Generally, I don't expect golfers to run between shots. They don't need to hit the ball without getting out of the cart. It's ok if they line up a putt or even stop to tie their shoe. Thru the collective experiences of golfers across the world, four hours is about average. Depending on the vagaries of the particular course, if you are much different than that, you are either fast or slow. For instance, I'll play alone and I know I'm going to have to wait if things are busy. I'm not going to give a foursome grief when there is another foursome in front of them. If you are the slow guy, figure out why. There's plenty of goods stuff here to help you. Know who you are and adjust yourself accordingly.

[mvmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumaAttack

Who exactly is feeling the problem in golf?  The slow players or the fast players?  Couldn't a slow player say the exact same thing about your pace?  That they can't enjoy golf because they have to rush to keep up?  That they feel stressed instead of relaxed?  Why is your way right for the universal world of golf?

This is news to you that pace of play is a problem? Do you remember the "While We're Young" campaign from the USGA from a couple years ago?

http://usga.org/news/2013/June/USGA-Launches-Pace-of-Play-Initiative/

Quote:

According to industry research, the time that it takes to play golf is a principal driver that adversely impacts enjoyment of and discourages participation in the game. In a recent study by the National Golf Foundation (NGF), 91 percent of serious golfers are bothered by slow play and say it detracts from their golf experience; more than 70 percent believe pace of play has worsened over time; and half acknowledged that they walked off the course due to frustration over a marathon round of golf. USGA research shows that the golfer is just one component within a complex, integrated system that determines pace of play in the game. Golf course design, course setup and player management also contribute to longer playing time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumaAttack

Couldn't a slow player say the exact same thing about your pace?  That they can't enjoy golf because they have to rush to keep up?

Again, I don't know why you have this idea that keeping a good pace of play means you have to rush or can't enjoy the round, that's ridiculous.

[saevel25]

Who exactly is feeling the problem in golf?  The slow players or the fast players?  Couldn't a slow player say the exact same thing about your pace?  That they can't enjoy golf because they have to rush to keep up?  That they feel stressed instead of relaxed?  Why is your way right for the universal world of golf?

No one is say you are not going to wait to hit. It's going to happen. Just make sure it's not 5-10 minutes every time.

How about this, go out to a golf course and ask players if they are more annoyed by slow golfers or a starter saying they should pick up the pace. I can say that it's going to overwhelmingly for those who say they are more annoyed by slow play. I can count the number of times on one hand I've been asked to pick up the pace over the past 10 years. I can not even begin to guess how many times I've been held up due to excessive slow play.

And @Fourputt

Park Hill GC which is 6500 yards, lists their pace of play at 4:30.  And you think its right and better to play an hour faster than their suggested pace of play??

I've played on a half filled course before and had a 5 hour round due to slow play. You can have slow play on a non busy day as you can have faster play on a packed day as well. Just depends on the golfers.

If that is what the pace of the golfers that day then yes. If you are on the 6th hole and you have a 2 hole gap between you and the group in front of you, and you where the tee time directly behind them then let the quicker groups behind you through or pick up the pace.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

We have no choice in this matter.

It boggles the mind that this simple point eludes some people.

With the possible exception of generating some awareness in the group immediately in front of them, faster players do not affect the pace of play of anyone else on the entire golf course. Slow players affect every single golfer behind them ..and can continue to do so even after the slow group has finally finished and gone home.

This is of course the crux of the problem.  Exceptionally fast players may impact wrongly on one group, but then such players are usually experienced golfers and they will do what they can to avoid seeming to push those slower players, unless those players are slow because they don't appear to be making any effort to keep up, and don't seem to give a crap about anyone but themselves.

Slow players impact everyone with them and behind them.  They simply don't have that right just because they paid a green fee.  Everyone else on the course paid to be there too, and they have a right to expect that the groups in front of them will keep pace with the groups that they are following.  On a busy course, all that can be asked is that the early groups play at a good pace (not necessarily the lethargic 4½ hours the course posts), and that all groups following with keep pace with them.  It's the fact that this rarely happens that is the cause of the current slow play epidemic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

What "alternate point of view"?  One that says slow is okay?

You do know people move at different paces right?

Why do they have to conform to your pace?  Why don't you conform to theirs instead?

What makes you right and them wrong?   Golf is supposed to be a recreational activity to be enjoyed and for many people that means a slower pace than everyday life.   Some people are enjoying the weather, the outdoors, etc. and don't feel the need to rush through every shot likes its a race.

Maybe you need to take a step back and enjoy your surroundings instead of racing to the finish line.

As I said before I'll probably have to say again when people fail to read what doesn't add to their argument, I don't race.  I don't have to.  I play efficiently.  That doesn't mean that I score well, I don't these days.  But I still get around the course in an efficient manner.  I have a preshot routine that I follow with every shot.  I clean my club after every shot.  I put the head covers back on my woods and putter after every shot with them.  I play by the rules as much as course loading allows.  My brother does the same as I do.  Yet for some reason, we can play a course like Pole Creek at a pace of 6 holes per hour with no rush at all.  We aren't racing anyone.  We are playing a leisurely round of golf in 3 hours for a twosome, or a bit under 4 hours when in a foursome.

This is what you refuse to acknowledge, that it simply isn't necessary to rush or race to play golf efficiently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

As long as a group is keeping up with the guys in front of them I have no issue.  When I'm waiting on them and there is nobody else in sight, then it's pretty easy to pinpoint the problem.  I've never raced on a golf course, so don't give me that crap.  I play golf when it's time to play golf, and I shoot the bull and wash my ball and all of the other little things during the normal breaks in the action, and that's what slow players don't do.

I have plenty of time to enjoy my surroundings.  Isn't 3½ to 4 hours enough time?  If not, There are lots of great hiking trails just west of Denver where taking your time and communing with nature is encouraged.

Why do you put a time limit on your hobby?  If you are so busy maybe golf shouldn't be your priority for that day.

I could say the same thing to you.  Maybe you should only play 9 holes so you can get back to whatever else is so important to you that day.  I have never seen a scorecard list pace of play at 3:30.  Maybe you should go for a quick hike instead of golf?

If I want to play longer, then I play more holes.  That's why when my brother was visiting from Idaho, we played more than 18 holes for 3 of the 6 days we played - 36, then 27 then 36, with a day of only 18 holes in between each of those multi round days.  The longest round we played in 6 days was 4:05 (Saturday foursome at Fox Hollow).  We were on vacation, we are both retired and had no reason to rush.  We just played leisurely golf.  The fact that this seems incomprehensible to you appears to indicate that you could use some training in cutting out wasted motion when playing.