The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[Scotsclaff]

With no hold ups a foursome taking 3 and a half hours is acceptable. In my area during high season we get a lot of Korean and Japanese groups,they are unbelievably slow and our foursome will be at least 4 and a half hours. The marshalls are a waste of time,we have already complained to the club but no action was taken. and we are members. Our own thoughts are because the Koreans and Japanese are staying on site they are bringing in more revenue and they are left alone to whatever pace they desire. Maybe the bombing in Bangkok will keep them away this year.lol.

[toolman605]

I put over 5 because the last two rounds have both been over 5 hours... Its a really tough course (72.6/143 from the blues) but come on!

Just for fun I tried to estimate how long golf shots actually take from start to finish...

Driver/Tee shot Approach shot Putting Par 3 tee shot Driving time between holes

90 seconds          85 seconds         105 sec.            110 sec.                   60 seconds

So I laid these numbers out in a grid assuming par 72 and inserted 60 seconds drive time after every shot. I came up with a total of 2 hours and 32 minutes for 18 holes!

Now granted this is for 1 player and only for 72 shots (and no lost balls) and maybe my estimates are way too low but where do we lose another 2 1/2 hours?

I'm playing tonight so I'm going to time some of my playing partners and see how long they take to execute their shots.

For example this is the format and times I used for the driver.

Driver                                                                Time

put tee in ground                                                 15 sec

step back and line up/find object in the distance    15 sec

step up & take practice swing                              15 sec

set-up over ball                                                   15 sec

hit ball                                                                10 sec

watch shot land                                                   10 sec

pick up tee 10 sec

Total                                                                   90 sec

[RandallT]

I put over 5 because the last two rounds have both been over 5 hours... Its a really tough course (72.6/143 from the blues) but come on!

Just for fun I tried to estimate how long golf shots actually take from start to finish...

Driver/Tee shot  Approach shot    Putting      Par 3 tee shot     Driving time between holes

90 seconds          85 seconds         105 sec.            110 sec.                   60 seconds

So I laid these numbers out in a grid assuming par 72 and inserted 60 seconds drive time after every shot. I came up with a total of 2 hours and 32 minutes for 18 holes!

Now granted this is for 1 player and only for 72 shots (and no lost balls) and maybe my estimates are way too low but where do we lose another 2 1/2 hours?

I'm playing tonight so I'm going to time some of my playing partners and see how long they take to execute their shots.

For example this is the format and times I used for the driver.

Driver                                                                Time

put tee in ground                                                 15 sec

step back and line up/find object in the distance    15 sec

step up & take practice swing                              15 sec

set-up over ball                                                   15 sec

hit ball                                                                10 sec

watch shot land                                                   10 sec

pick up tee                                                          10 sec

Total                                                                   90 sec

I'm interested in what you come up with. I've been dabbling at modeling golf course flow and bottlenecks. I've made various assumptions on how long various things take, and I use random generation of various variables to simulate play.

What strikes me is that you have 90 seconds for a drive, but my models had people taking less than a minute each per shot. See below:

In my models, I have 5 classes of people: SuperSlow, Slow, Normal, Fast, SuperFast. Here's a screenshot of their settings:

As you see, the slowest players take longer, but not TOO much longer to do the basic stuff as faster players. But those times add up big time.

I can run a simulation with 100% of the SuperSlow players, and it takes them over 5 hours to play (with 10 minute tee intervals).  I can run a simulation with 100% of the SuperFast players above, and it takes them 3 hours to play (with 10 minute intervals). So these small differences add up!

In the OT expandable thing here, I'll copy the results from a simulation of 10% SS, 20% Slow, 40% Normal, 20%Fast, 10%SuperFast players, and you can see where they spend their time. Every event that happens is given a random time, based on the profile above. No group can play a shot until the group in front is "clear" out of their way (I have definitions for that too).

This chart shows for my assumptions how long the average group spent doing stuff (Much of the time was playing (over 2 hrs), but over an hour is travelling to the ball or to the next hole. Only 15minutes waiting, and 10 minutes searching balls/etc.

This divides the groups into categories and shows how each groups spent time differently (faster groups waited more and played less):

This shows how the day went out on the course. When you adjust tee times, it gets interesting. This is a 10minute interval, so not much waiting. If you adjust to even 8 min tee times, it gets interesting!

Here is some raw data, that shows each groups makeup (1=Superslow, 2=Slow, 3=Normal, 4= Fast, 5=SuperFast). Each group is randomly determined, so each run of the simulation is different.

Anyway, the point is that if you find that it really takes 90 seconds to play each shot for each person, I'll have to adjust my models!

I forget where I got these numbers, but it was a balance of:

1. Academic papers

2. My experience

3. Just getting the numbers to work (I think the travel times involved looking at normal walking speeds and lengths of courses... so I worked backwards). When I used 90 seconds per shot, the length of rounds were too long.

I'm interested in what you get in your experience, because the simulation is basically garbage in/garbage out. My guess though is that it takes about 30 seconds on average to play a shot for typical players, with some deviation due to random things (like some dude finishing a dumb story, or picking the wrong club from the bag, etc).  I could be wildly wrong, and maybe it is more like 90 seconds.... in which case I'd need to modify the times of things like travelling to make the "normal" rounds be about 4 hours.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

As I'm usually the one complaining about really slow rounds in Myrtle Beach, I figured I'd chime in on the other end of the spectrum.... ....most people here suggest playing very early if you want to avoid 5 hour rounds. I explain that it isn't possible because of double tee-ing. I'm currently in upstate NY on vacation and had the opportunity to play Fairways of Halfmoon GC this morning. I had a 6:45am tee time as a single, had a quick twosome in front of me, and played 18 holes in 2 hours finishing up just before 8:45am. I must say, getting to finish 18 holes in under 2 hours was a very enjoyable morning of golf. I'm going to do it again tomorrow.

[mdl]

I voted 4:30-5 based on typical round length, not how fast we'd play without waiting.  Without waiting I'd say probably 3:30.

[Aflighter]

If its taking you more than 30 secs to hit your ball once you arrive to it then your either slow or playing for some big bucks.Couldnt imagine taking much longer than that to shoot flag pull stick and hit but then again I dont take practice swings.

[saevel25]

I pull up to my ball.

I would say I average 24 seconds on a typical shot.

Putting I probably take 20 second per putt that isn't a tap in.

Average for a round,

Full Swing: 18-20 minutes

Putting: 7-8 minutes

[phillyk]

If its taking you more than 30 secs to hit your ball once you arrive to it then your either slow or playing for some big bucks.Couldnt imagine taking much longer than that to shoot flag pull stick and hit but then again I dont take practice swings.

I try to take every shot seriously as if it were for big bucks.  It's when I lose concentration and don't take it seriously that I start to struggle.  I take my time over every shot / putt to make sure I'm comfortable before pulling the trigger.  If I'm not comfortable, I have no problem starting the routine over again, but I'm a fast walker and can make up the time that way.

[Aflighter]

If you take 30 secs per shot and you shoot 90 then thats 45 mins of playing shots.Figure in another 2 mins per hole for driving from tee to ball to green then thats another 40 mins approximately.Add another 30 mins for driving from green to next tee for 18 and your looking at 2 hours for a single no waiting.Add 3 others doing same scorewise and you add 3 45mins for there shots to that and you have 2hrs 15 mins added to your 2 hrs and walah you have 4 hrs 15 min round if no waiting.Everytime you gotta wait on group ahead then your time adds up.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

If you take 30 secs per shot and you shoot 90 then thats 45 mins of playing shots.Figure in another 2 mins per hole for driving from tee to ball to green then thats another 40 mins approximately.Add another 30 mins for driving from green to next tee for 18 and your looking at 2 hours for a single no waiting.

I played a very comfortable 2 hour pace this morning as a single. Actually hit a couple provisionals and did a quick search for 1 lost ball along the way. I could have played faster, maybe 30 minutes, but I was playing comfortably with a very quick twosome in front of me.

[RandallT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aflighter

If you take 30 secs per shot and you shoot 90 then thats 45 mins of playing shots.Figure in another 2 mins per hole for driving from tee to ball to green then thats another 40 mins approximately.Add another 30 mins for driving from green to next tee for 18 and your looking at 2 hours for a single no waiting.

I played a very comfortable 2 hour pace this morning as a single. Actually hit a couple provisionals and did a quick search for 1 lost ball along the way.

I could have played faster, maybe 30 minutes, but I was playing comfortably with a very quick twosome in front of me.

I think one of my assumptions in my model I described above was that golf was very roughly a 6 mile walk at 4mph (90 minutes). That's a bit debatable, of course, but I tried to get the average (or "normal" group) to spend about 90 minutes walking/travelling.  My experience is that carts are roughly the same as walking, and I walk, so I used my experience of walking.

So yes, if you play 60 shots (ignoring tap-ins) where you spend half a minute each, that's just 30 more minutes, for a 2-hr round. Doable.

I think a single in a cart would use WAY less than 90 minutes of travel time- particularly if they're playing pretty well, and no cart path only rule.

So many variables. But 90 minutes seemed like a decent place to start for my sim, so I monkeyed with my player profiles to get about that. But 4mph is a somewhat brisk walk, I admit. And most rounds are likely more than 6miles.

As I'm usually the one complaining about really slow rounds in Myrtle Beach, I figured I'd chime in on the other end of the spectrum....

....most people here suggest playing very early if you want to avoid 5 hour rounds. I explain that it isn't possible because of double tee-ing.

I'm currently in upstate NY on vacation and had the opportunity to play Fairways of Halfmoon GC this morning. I had a 6:45am tee time as a single, had a quick twosome in front of me, and played 18 holes in 2 hours finishing up just before 8:45am. I must say, getting to finish 18 holes in under 2 hours was a very enjoyable morning of golf. I'm going to do it again tomorrow.

I was curious what you meant by this line in bold re: double tee-ing. I didn't follow.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I think one of my assumptions in my model I described above was that golf was very roughly a 6 mile walk at 4mph (90 minutes). That's a bit debatable, of course, but I tried to get the average (or "normal" group) to spend about 90 minutes walking/travelling.  My experience is that carts are roughly the same as walking, and I walk, so I used my experience of walking.   So yes, if you play 60 shots (ignoring tap-ins) where you spend half a minute each, that's just 30 more minutes, for a 2-hr round. Doable. I think a single in a cart would use WAY less than 90 minutes of travel time- particularly if they're playing pretty well, and no cart path only rule. So many variables. But 90 minutes seemed like a decent place to start for my sim, so I monkeyed with my player profiles to get about that. But 4mph is a somewhat brisk walk, I admit. And most rounds are likely more than 6miles. I was curious what you meant by this line in bold re: double tee-ing. I didn't follow.

Courses in MB start players off on both hole #1 and hole #10 for tee times from 7 - 9:20am. Meaning, if you tee off of #1 at 7:00am, you can NOT make the turn until after 9:20am because there are players starting their round with tee-times from #10. That's what I mean by double tee-ing.

[RandallT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandallT

I think one of my assumptions in my model I described above was that golf was very roughly a 6 mile walk at 4mph (90 minutes). That's a bit debatable, of course, but I tried to get the average (or "normal" group) to spend about 90 minutes walking/travelling.  My experience is that carts are roughly the same as walking, and I walk, so I used my experience of walking.

So yes, if you play 60 shots (ignoring tap-ins) where you spend half a minute each, that's just 30 more minutes, for a 2-hr round. Doable.

I think a single in a cart would use WAY less than 90 minutes of travel time- particularly if they're playing pretty well, and no cart path only rule.

So many variables. But 90 minutes seemed like a decent place to start for my sim, so I monkeyed with my player profiles to get about that. But 4mph is a somewhat brisk walk, I admit. And most rounds are likely more than 6miles.

I was curious what you meant by this line in bold re: double tee-ing. I didn't follow.

Courses in MB start players off on both hole #1 and hole #10 for tee times from 7 - 9:20am. Meaning, if you tee off of #1 at 7:00am, you can NOT make the turn until after 9:20am because there are players starting their round with tee-times from #10.

That's what I mean by double tee-ing.

Gotcha. I play mornings, and that would piss me off to play a nice front nine, only to find an entirely different rhythm of the game at the turn (likely slower).  From all I've read on the topic and researched myself, the afternoon tee times of busy courses are the absolute worst, because of delays that tend to accumulate throughout the day.

Interesting that the double tee-ing would negate that somewhat. That would be frustrating to me, as I love finishing rounds before 11am (a full day ahead), without necessarily teeing off crazy early.

[sjduffers]

I think one of my assumptions in my model I described above was that golf was very roughly a 6 mile walk at 4mph (90 minutes).

I love that simulation and all the work and thoughts that you put into this.  But the assumption above is a bit tight in my opinion.  I am a walker for over 80% of my rounds as well, and I can tell you than I don't average 4 mph, maybe 3 mph but even that is difficult to sustain if there are any hills on the course and/or it's hot and/or humid.

As far the distance covered, depending on how you go from one side of the fairway to the other to help your partners, push your cart towards the next tee and then walk back to finish the hole, walk to the next tee which is bit further than immediately around the previous green, etc... 6 miles may also be on the low side. Granted some of that time overlaps with what the others are doing, but for me a quick round walking (shooting 80-85) is around 2:45 to 3:00 by myself, but i take the flag out while putting, look the putts over, etc.. In other words I am not rushing, nor being deliberately slow. I have also played as a threesome or foursome (one to two walkers, including me and the rest riding) in around 3:00, but more frequently between 3:30 and 4:00.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Gotcha. I play mornings, and that would piss me off to play a nice front nine, only to find an entirely different rhythm of the game at the turn (likely slower).  From all I've read on the topic and researched myself, the afternoon tee times of busy courses are the absolute worst, because of delays that tend to accumulate throughout the day. Interesting that the double tee-ing would negate that somewhat. That would be frustrating to me, as I love finishing rounds before 11am (a full day ahead), without necessarily teeing off crazy early.

Nearly impossible to finish a round before 11am. The course would need to be very dead. It was a very nice change to be able to finish 18 holes before 9am.

[RandallT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandallT

I think one of my assumptions in my model I described above was that golf was very roughly a 6 mile walk at 4mph (90 minutes).

I love that simulation and all the work and thoughts that you put into this.  But the assumption above is a bit tight in my opinion.  I am a walker for over 80% of my rounds as well, and I can tell you than I don't average 4 mph, maybe 3 mph but even that is difficult to sustain if there are any hills on the course and/or it's hot and/or humid.

As far the distance covered, depending on how you go from one side of the fairway to the other to help your partners, push your cart towards the next tee and then walk back to finish the hole, walk to the next tee which is bit further than immediately around the previous green, etc... 6 miles may also be on the low side. Granted some of that time overlaps with what the others are doing, but for me a quick round walking (shooting 80-85) is around 2:45 to 3:00 by myself, but i take the flag out while putting, look the putts over, etc.. In other words I am not rushing, nor being deliberately slow. I have also played as a threesome or foursome (one to two walkers, including me and the rest riding) in around 3:00, but more frequently between 3:30 and 4:00.

I actually agree! Thanks for the feedback! Maybe 90 minutes travel time is just for the speediest of all walkers and shortest of courses. Damn speed golfers.

Pace of play is hard to analyze just cuz there's so many variables and I didn't want to necessarily assume walking or cart. Every course is so vastly different- hard v easy, long v short. The profile of players is different. Some crowded, some not. Some hilly. Some have 8 minute tee intervals, some 10.  I think we see the vast diversity of experiences in this thread, which is cool.

But we all hate those clueless players who don't realize it's their turn to play! That is universal

[Psyber]

Since I've started playing I always see people talking about how long rounds take and complaining about 4.5-5 hour rounds. I just don't see what the big rush is. Sure if people are doing deliberately slow things but if I go out to play on a Sunday I know it will be crowded and it will take a while. It's a weekend, what else do I possibly have to do for 4-5 hours besides hanging out outside while enjoying a few beers and playing a round?

[RFKFREAK]

Since I've started playing I always see people talking about how long rounds take and complaining about 4.5-5 hour rounds. I just don't see what the big rush is. Sure if people are doing deliberately slow things but if I go out to play on a Sunday I know it will be crowded and it will take a while. It's a weekend, what else do I possibly have to do for 4-5 hours besides hanging out outside while enjoying a few beers and playing a round?

I know for me it just gets me out of rhythm if I have to wait 5-10 minutes at every tee box waiting before I am able to hit.