The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[David in FL]

23 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

If you dispute that 4 hours for a foursome is universally acceptable then you're pretty much disputing facts.

Is there a (full length) course on earth that deems 4 hours for 18 holes to be unacceptable?

Which is exactly why I said, above, that courses are complicit in the issue of slow play.....

I dispute that 4 hours should be acceptable.

[Dave2512]

8 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Which is exactly why I said, above, that courses are complicit in the issue of slow play.....

I dispute that 4 hours should be acceptable.

Even on a full course? I despise slow play and I am a speedster but with 130 plus golfers ahead of me I am ok with 4 hours. If every group is moving at that pace it doesn't feel slow. 

[Lihu]

21 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Which is exactly why I said, above, that courses are complicit in the issue of slow play.....

I dispute that 4 hours should be acceptable.

 

10 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Even on a full course? I despise slow play and I am a speedster but with 130 plus golfers ahead of me I am ok with 4 hours. If every group is moving at that pace it doesn't feel slow. 

I agree with both of you.

On a completely full course 4 hours would be pretty nice. The issues are with the people who think they are going at a reasonable 4 hour pace and people start bunching up behind them and there is a large gap in front of them.

I tend to think it's these "pace setter" types who create the 5 to 6 hour rounds we have in our area. I've actually watched the seeds planted stroke by stroke for really slow play. However, my partners and I usually just jump ahead of them where the holes snake past each other.

Some of us have learned the art of Ninja golf.

[Dave2512]

Just now, Lihu said:

 

I agree with both of you.

On a full course 4 hours would be pretty nice. The issues are with the people who think they are going at a reasonable 4 hour pace and people start bunching up behind them and there is a large gap in front of them.

I tend to think it's these "pace setter" types who create the 5 to 6 hour rounds we have in our area. I've actually watched the seeds planted stroke by stroke for really slow play. However, my partners and I usually just jump ahead of them where the holes snake past each other.

Some of us have learned the art of Ninja golf.

If I ever see that, and I have, I am on the phone to the pro shop. 

[Lihu]

7 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

If I ever see that, and I have, I am on the phone to the pro shop. 

 

Numerous attempts have been made to call the pro shop about the slow play, but most of the time they just say 5.5 hours is pretty good for a weekend (or a tournament day or whatnot). So, many of us have employed these Ninja tactics.

I know my home courses pretty well, though, so I can scout out the entire course (actually both) in about 6 minutes in a cart to see if there are any gaps. I'm not the only one who knows. . .not. . .the. . .only. . .one. . .

[Dave2512]

Then I would never play there again. I love it our course values my biz. Not just a face in the crowd though, I can call and say it's Dave and they know who I am. 

Course was busy today. Got to ten as a single. Saw carts backed up in front. Rolled up to 1 tee and did my thing. Helps to be a regular. 

[newtogolf]

39 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Which is exactly why I said, above, that courses are complicit in the issue of slow play.....

I dispute that 4 hours should be acceptable.

Our club has what we call "Rabbit Tee Times" (pace setters), they are the first hour of tee times on weekends.  In order to get those tee times your foursome has to agree to finish in less than 3.5 hours.  Most weekends they are not fully booked, partially because they are the earliest tee times and partially because not everyone wants to play at that pace.  

I'm sure as pace of play becomes a bigger issue some courses may adopt a faster pace of play as a marketing tool to attract players like yourself who want a fast paced game but most everyone I speak to is pretty happy with a 4 hour  - 4:15 round.  

[David in FL]

48 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Even on a full course? I despise slow play and I am a speedster but with 130 plus golfers ahead of me I am ok with 4 hours. If every group is moving at that pace it doesn't feel slow. 

I tend to agree.  But accepting 4 hours on a completely full course isn't the same as designating a generally acceptable pace for an individual group.  A course will only play as fast as the slowest group out there....

[Dave2512]

8 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I tend to agree.  But accepting 4 hours on a completely full course isn't the same as designating a generally acceptable pace for an individual group.  A course will only play as fast as the slowest group out there....

I am curious how published course POP is determined. 

Regardless I see it as an enforcement issue. Golf is a tough sport. Leaving it to self-managed golfers leaves the door open for bad habits. Volunteer rangers putting in the time in exchange for discounted or free golf is a problem here.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

 

I agree with both of you.

On a completely full course 4 hours would be pretty nice. The issues are with the people who think they are going at a reasonable 4 hour pace and people start bunching up behind them and there is a large gap in front of them.

I tend to think it's these "pace setter" types who create the 5 to 6 hour rounds we have in our area. I've actually watched the seeds planted stroke by stroke for really slow play. However, my partners and I usually just jump ahead of them where the holes snake past each other.

Some of us have learned the art of Ninja golf.

Not sure I follow the math here.  How could a group that goes round in 4 hours cause the groups behind them to go around in 5 or 6 hours?

---

And it is my strong opinion that those of you who think that 4 hours for a foursome is unacceptable are being quite unreasonable.  I will happily retain a "bad attitude" and happily continue to be "a part of the problem."

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Not sure I follow the math here.  How could a group that goes round in 4 hours cause the groups behind them to go around in 5 or 6 hours?

---

And it is my strong opinion that those of you who think that 4 hours for a foursome is unacceptable are being quite unreasonable.  I will happily retain a "bad attitude" and happily continue to be "a part of the problem."

Simple math doesn't work here.

Think of traffic flow modeling. One slow person can cause a hundred or more cars to slow down, and once traffic slows down everything slows down and even comes to a stop in some places due to non uniform rates of travel.

In an Ethernet communications system, when a buffer fills up, packets can get lost or stuck. This causes a fault to be sent back to the sender. It's way more complicated than this, actually...

In any system, where flow of non uniform materials can bunch up, the flow rate will be altered non linearly and in some cases forces a stop and others does nothing to slow things down.

On the golf course, a 2 minute delay does not necessarily cause just a 2 minute slowdown on the course. If that 2 minute delay was enough to make another group bunch up behind another group waiting at the tee box the course is hosed behind them. That will force everyone to break their flow unless the bunched group can speed up to catch the party in front of them and everyone else can do the same.This requires that the players are capable of playing a lot faster than "normal". Also, in other cases even a 4 minute slowdown won't do anything.

It's not linear, so the "math" won't "add up".

----------------------------------

4 hours is reasonable, but should not be your maximum playing rate so there is a likely possibility to "catch up" when required.

[Golfingdad]

15 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Simple math doesn't work here.

Think of traffic flow modeling. One slow person can cause a hundred or more cars to slow down, and once traffic slows down everything slows down and even comes to a stop in some places due to non uniform rates of travel.

In an Ethernet communications system, when a buffer fills up, packets can get lost or stuck. This causes a fault to be sent back to the sender. It's way more complicated than this, actually...

In any system, where flow of non uniform materials can bunch up, the flow rate will be altered non linearly and in some cases forces a stop and others does nothing to slow things down.

On the golf course, a 2 minute delay does not necessarily cause just a 2 minute slowdown on the course. If that 2 minute delay was enough to make another group bunch up behind another group waiting at the tee box the course is hosed behind them. That will force everyone to break their flow unless the bunched group can speed up to catch the party in front of them and everyone else can do the same.This requires that the players are capable of playing a lot faster than "normal". Also, in other cases even a 4 minute slowdown won't do anything.

It's not linear, so the "math" won't "add up".

----------------------------------

4 hours is reasonable, but should not be your maximum playing rate so there is a likely possibility to "catch up" when required.

You are waaaay overthinking this.  Keep up with the group in front of you.  If the group in front of you goes round in 4 hours and you don't, it's not their fault.  It IS very much straight forward math and it is that simple.  No rocket science (or Ethernet communications systems knowledge) required here.

[Lihu]

7 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

You are waaaay overthinking this.  Keep up with the group in front of you.  If the group in front of you goes round in 4 hours and you don't, it's not their fault.  It IS very much straight forward math and it is that simple.  No rocket science (or Ethernet communications systems knowledge) required here.

Agree. @Fourputt even had this in his signature.

Also, if my round is more than 5 hours, I guarantee that I'll make the leader board in Angry Birds Diamond level.

[Fourputt]

12 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Simple math doesn't work here.

Think of like traffic flow modeling. One slow person can cause a hundred or more cars to slow down, and once traffic slows down everything slows down and even comes to a stop in some places due to non uniform rates of travel.

In an Ethernet communications system, when a buffer fills up, packets can get lost or stuck. This causes a fault to be sent back to the sender. It's way more complicated than this, actually...

In any system, where flow of non uniform materials can bunch up, the flow rate will be altered non linearly and in some cases forces a stop and others does nothing to slow things down.

On the golf course, a 2 minute delay does not necessarily cause just a 2 minute slowdown on the course. If that 2 minute delay was enough to make another group bunch up behind another group waiting at the tee box the course is hosed behind them. That will force everyone to break their flow unless the bunched group can speed up to catch the party in front of them and everyone else can do the same. Also, in other cases even a 4 minute slowdown won't do anything.

It's not linear, so the "math" won't "add up".

Good post.  During low traffic times, cars on the freeway moving at the speed limit have nothing to impede them if they come up on a car moving at just 2 mph under the limit - they just pass it.  It's not difficult to exceed the limit.  Now we approach rush hour, and the the volume increases.  Everyone is doing the speed limit except that one car, but now there is no room for everyone to jockey around him.  Some will make it, others won't.  Some will try squeezing into the faster flow, and that just causes those lanes to slow down too, and soon you have gridlock.  Noting will resolve the situation until the volume decreases as the evening goes on and people finally get off on surface streets as they approach home.

The same thing applies to the golf course.  During non busy times, one slightly slow group isn't an issue.  In fact that "slow" group might be playing at the course's recommended pace, but not as fast as other groups on the fairly open course.  Faster players can play through or skip around, and only a couple of groups are going to come up on them anyway during an 18 hole round.  Now start adding more groups to the mix, that one group will create a gridlock effect that will last far beyond the time when they finish and leave the course.  The faster groups will start to stack up and there is simply no way to play through fast enough to accommodate all of them.  Now you have that blockage and it is not going away because as fast as the lead group picks up speed, another group piles into the back of the jam.  The jam will persist until "rush hour" on the course is over.  

This is why trying to play fast on a full course is just as much of a problem as playing slowly.  A series of "fast" groups will still create a jam up even if there is no truly slow group at front, and that jam will persist.

[Deed]

I picked 3:30 to 4 hours but this isn't typical. If I'm playing with the regular foursome with no one in front of us it can be less then 3:30. On the weekend following skins it can be 4:30 to 5 hours, this is what is killing the game. The club I belong too has way to many skins and or leagues, and or other groups playing on the weekend first thing in the morning. Slow play is killing golf. On the other hand I'm starting to play later in the day due to this with.  We can get a round in less then 3:30 hours, manly due to we don't get into much trouble and play ready golf. In saying this it is difficult to get some people to play ready golf, they think they are playing in the PGA championship every time they go out.

[Jeremie Boop]

9 minutes ago, Deed said:

I picked 3:30 to 4 hours but this isn't typical. If I'm playing with the regular foursome with no one in front of us it can be less then 3:30. On the weekend following skins it can be 4:30 to 5 hours, this is what is killing the game. The club I belong too has way to many skins and or leagues, and or other groups playing on the weekend first thing in the morning. Slow play is killing golf. On the other hand I'm starting to play later in the day due to this with.  We can get a round in less then 3:30 hours, manly due to we don't get into much trouble and play ready golf. In saying this it is difficult to get some people to play ready golf, they think they are playing in the PGA championship every time they go out.

My main play course has a lot of people in the skins games but they play early. At 1 pm the course starts running a $25 cart and unlimited golf deal on the weekends. I usually get there somewhere between 1:30-3:30 pm and am able to get 27-36+ holes of golf in before dark. I'm not typically an early morning golfer, so this works out well for me. If they moved the skins games into the later hours it would kill my ability to play and take advantage of this deal.

[colin007]

13 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

 

Let me ask you something @colin007... Does your course have thick woods lining most of the fairways or is it more of an open course?

Yeah, they are woods lined. Town of Colonie and Capital Hills, both near Albany N.Y.

I agree with @David in FL, I dispute that 4 hours is acceptable. Why? It didn't used to be. Even the pros played in less than that. And BTW, it's not acceptable overseas. How come they can play faster but 'muricans can't?

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

If you dispute that 4 hours for a foursome is universally acceptable then you're pretty much disputing facts.

Is there a (full length) course on earth that deems 4 hours for 18 holes to be unacceptable?

Seriously.

9 hours ago, David in FL said:

Which is exactly why I said, above, that courses are complicit in the issue of slow play.....

I dispute that 4 hours should be acceptable.

@David in FL, how about we get to four hours everywhere before we decide if that's fast enough?

You're not helping the problem by insisting that 4:00 is glacial, either. If you make an unreasonable argument - which that is at this time - it's easy to dismiss your opinion.

I'm about as fast as anyone, but 4:00 on a full course is a dream at this point. Be reasonable.