Handicap vs Average Score

[Jeremie Boop]

Seems like the easiest path would be to hopefully convince your father to join a different league and course with you. Hope you can work it out because I know hard it is getting my schedule to line up with my fathers.

Not going to happen unfortunately, he plays in this league because it's the league associated with the bar he frequents. I can't even get him to play a casual round on the weekends. So I deal with the league because time with him is more important to me than avoiding the annoyances that comes with playing in the league.

[SavvySwede]

Sitting on the tee box this weekend I got into a debate/discussion with my a few of my league members.

My league handicap takes the best 8 out of 16 scores, but does not utilize equitable stroke control.

One of the members has always complained that his handicap is too high. He keeps an average for himself (he can be a creative score keeper, but that is another story).

His complaint is that he has himself as a 5, the league has him as a 10.

The debate became why isnt your average and handicap the same?

I contended that a handicap is based on potential and average is the average of good & bad. A handicap is throwing out the 8 of your worst rounds and keeping the better ones.

The golfer went on to complain that a handicap is unfair, to which I told him to take it up with the PGA and rules people.

Does anyone provide me with good talking points as to why handicap is used and why it is better than average?

Is this backwards? Not sure how to figure you're a 5 when you're best scores put you at 10.

[mvmac]

Is this backwards? Not sure how to figure you're a 5 when you're best scores put you at 10.

That might be where the "creative" part comes in.

[Big Lex]

The USGA handicap system is a pretty sophisticated statistical tool. The purpose is to allow people of different ability levels to compete on a more or less equal footing (still maintaining a slight advantage for the better player). It isn't perfect, and there are many opinions regarding what is good and what is bad about the system. I think the reason that the system bases the number on your better scores and not your average is that they want to bias against someone benefitting too much from the strokes. The system has several facets which are explicitly designed to prevent someone from having too high a number and benefiting too much in a competition. Let's assume two golfers, both with scoring averages of 90. One guy scores between 87 and 93 without fail. The other guy is much more erratic, with scores between 80 and 100, and one or two rounds in the 70s every year. (There are actually two golfers at my club who match these descriptions). If both had the same handicap, the second guy has a much better chance of beating a low hcp player than the first guy does. I think that's why they choose potential instead of typical for the basis of the hcp. The fatal flaw is that some,guys try hard all the time and always try to get their best score. Other guys may have the same or better potential but don't try as hard all the time. The system assumes everyone is always trying for their lowest score, and this isn't always true....not talking about sandbagging either, I'm talking about guys trying to hole putts or otherwise taking chances at low percentage but hi reward shots in an attempt to win holes.... I think the system works very well IF people actually post ALL of their scores as the system requires. Vanity posting and not posting match play scores or incorrectly scoring for yourself on conceded strokes, etc., all throw the system off. As does sandbagging and vanity posting....

[Lihu]

The USGA handicap system is a pretty sophisticated statistical tool. The purpose is to allow people of different ability levels to compete on a more or less equal footing (still maintaining a slight advantage for the better player). It isn't perfect, and there are many opinions regarding what is good and what is bad about the system.

I think the system works very well IF people actually post ALL of their scores as the system requires. Vanity posting and not posting match play scores or incorrectly scoring for yourself on conceded strokes, etc., all throw the system off. As does sandbagging and vanity posting....

I've neglected all of those scores, those represent 1/3 of my total scores. . .ouch. Half the holes were conceded to me. . . ouch ouch.

[Dave2512]

Handicap manipulation is stupid. It's a big reason why I don't like leagues. The guys where I play do more talking than a freakin' knitting circle. It's I don't want to play a match against so and so because he doesn't post correct scores or that guy cheats we saw him. I can't handle it really made me not like a few of the guys, and the biggest talkers are the course regulars, rangers, vol. range pickers, clerks all of them are busy bodies.

[newtogolf]

I think it depends on where you play.  I definitely see a lot more vanity cappers than sandbaggers in my club.

The problem is that the vanity cappers have convinced themselves they are actually capable of competing at their underinflated index so when they get beat by someone that has a legitimate index equal or higher than theirs they scream sandbagger.

[JonMA1]

Not going to happen unfortunately, he plays in this league because it's the league associated with the bar he frequents. I can't even get him to play a casual round on the weekends. So I deal with the league because time with him is more important to me than avoiding the annoyances that comes with playing in the league.

Putting up with all that stuff from the other league members sounds tiring. You get my vote for "Son of the Year" honors.

Seriously, sounds like you have a good understanding of what's important in life. There are so many of us who do not.

[saevel25]

The debate became why isnt your average and handicap the same?

I contended that a handicap is based on potential and average is the average of good & bad. A handicap is throwing out the 8 of your worst rounds and keeping the better ones.

The golfer went on to complain that a handicap is unfair, to which I told him to take it up with the PGA and rules people.

Does anyone provide me with good talking points as to why handicap is used and why it is better than average?

Actually handicap is set up so you only beat your handicap once ever 5 times.

Handicap isn't the most accurate measure of ability more than it's a way to even the playing field.

You have how the course is rated and sloped. So that is subjective to a point. Then you only take the best 10 out of the last 20 scores (max). So you are not taking an average of everything. Then you multiple that average of the differentials by 0.96. So it gets reduced even more.

Sad thing is, if you take the best 8 out of 16. His actually playing ability is worse than a 10. Your handicap should always be lower than your average.

[Club Rat]

more than it's a way to even the playing field.

@Elmer - Matt pretty much hits the nail on the head, which is why most events are flighted.

Set up your league competition where players compete in "a,b,c,d" handicap divisions among players of similar abilities.

Paying equal amounts for each field will generally make everyone happy.

[Elmer]

Is this backwards? Not sure how to figure you're a 5 when you're best scores put you at 10.

This is answered quite easily.

The person in question, when he plays a casual round writes down the score he got or should have gotten. (IE-missed a par put, still write par).

in the league he has an opponent watching him and can not just give himself any score, since someone else is usually keeping score.

As I tend to tell him there is more pressure in league play and your bad shots are accentuated!

While he maintains that you would be 5 strokes better on any other course, I counter that his league hanidcap may be closer to the truth.

For the record the 10 is for 18, not 9!

Dont get me wrong he makes good contact and is very accurate, but you can not just ignore the bad shots and scores. Bad rounds are apart of the game (which he has never had)

I should note that my league only uses league rounds for handicapping purposes. We used to allow people to add other rounds from different courses as long as they were verified by a league member, but found people were turning questionable low scores.

So basically your league handicap is league rounds only and the person in the OP's average are all rounds not in the league.

I think it depends on where you play.  I definitely see a lot more vanity cappers than sandbaggers in my club.

The problem is that the vanity cappers have convinced themselves they are actually capable of competing at their underinflated index so when they get beat by someone that has a legitimate index equal or higher than theirs they scream sandbagger.

I like that term "vanity capper". we dont have any in my league, but I know people who only care to tell you they are a 7 handicap. they avoid turning in bad score because they like to keep thier handicap low, like it is a important.

The golfer in question in the OP is certainly a "vanity capper". He likes to tell people he is 5 handicap, but then he has to back it up, legit!!!

@Elmer - Matt pretty much hits the nail on the head, which is why most events are flighted.

Set up your league competition where players compete in "a,b,c,d" handicap divisions among players of similar abilities.

Paying equal amounts for each field will generally make everyone happy.

we have 5 flights set up by handicap at the begining of the year. We tend to complete with 9 other golfers who are either even or a stroke or 2 difference at most.

At the end the champs of each flight play 18 for the title.

The individual in the question was in the A flight, but could not beat other 5's or less and moved to the Sr division which is comprised of golfers over 65 and range from 5 handicap to 16.

He cant beat a 5 or below, but can beat a 16!

They currently have to claim money from the pro shop, the league president leaves a stack of envelopes with weekly winners names on it. I'm guessing the credit for overpriced pro shop merchandise will be the deterrent.  The prizes are small $20 and under for most so having to kick in their own money to utilize it for anything but a sleeve of balls or cheesy course logo ball marker won't be as appealing to the cheaters.

I won't be joining any leagues going forward. The silly cheating and the cliques make me dread it every week. I joined two and dues were around $300 each and it's been nothing but grief. Half the time I get there and don't play because I can't find anyone to play with. I've only turned in 3 scores in one that started back in April because the guys in that one all stick to their regular foursomes. The 3 times I did play pure misery due to the slow play 2:40 to play 9 holes on average.

I joined thinking I'd meet people and make a few golf friends. I've played with guys and had them walk right by me the next week like they didn't see me. These are the same creepers I see out there as singles that don't play with anyone but their friends and eff up the pace of play.

Our league did away with the prize money years ago. We used to tally up a couple cents per point and everyone won some money depending on how many point they had at the end of the season. We voted away with this. Now we have 5 people who win jackets (wind breakers) and the overall champ gets a plaque.

since you are playing a match you always have a guy to play with.

I had been pushing my father to let me play with him in his league because we don't really spend much time together. Other than spending time with him I really regret joining the league. The course is crap, it takes forever to play the 9 holes, people play "league rules", there's no real rewards other than skins which are won by the same people all the time, and I'm stuck being around people who are constantly smoking marijuana.... I've found myself hoping that he quits the league soon but at the same time I know that would just mean we would spend less time hanging out.

I am trying to see the negative here?

spending the afternoon on a golf course with A couple beers and a contact high is so much better than being at work!

[Jeremie Boop]

I am trying to see the negative here?

spending the afternoon on a golf course with A couple beers and a contact high is so much better than being at work!

I'm sure you are joking. But I'll respond.

1. I don't approve of drug use, personal reasons due to family members who have had and still do have drug problems

2. I work for the county and have random drug tests so the idea of getting a contact high is doubly annoying to me. I do not stand close enough for that to really be a problem, but that doesn't mean I appreciate people smoking it around me.

3. I rarely ever drink and I never drink if I have to drive.

4. The time I'm at the golf course for league is after I get off of work so it's not like I'm getting out of work to be there. Though I agree, time on the course is more enjoyable that being at work.

In general the post was just expressing that while there are multiple things I don't like about the league I care about spending time with my father enough to put up with them.

[Elmer]

I'm sure you are joking. But I'll respond.

1. I don't approve of drug use, personal reasons due to family members who have had and still do have drug problems

2. I work for the county and have random drug tests so the idea of getting a contact high is doubly annoying to me. I do not stand close enough for that to really be a problem, but that doesn't mean I appreciate people smoking it around me.

3. I rarely ever drink and I never drink if I have to drive.

4. The time I'm at the golf course for league is after I get off of work so it's not like I'm getting out of work to be there. Though I agree, time on the course is more enjoyable that being at work.

In general the post was just expressing that while there are multiple things I don't like about the league I care about spending time with my father enough to put up with them.

Joking!!!!!

Life is way too short to be serious all the time!

Just some quick response to your response:

1- I have no problem with pot, but dont smoke. I have family members with problems as well so harder drugs are not approved. Now a Nitrous tank and a bottle of whiskey is the only way to golf!

2-I used to get tested, and know that tests can differentiate between contact and usage. but most the golfer I know do it off to the side away from the Cops in our league!

3- A cold beer on the course is a fine thing. I have 1, you want to have more that is on you!

4- I leave work an hour early, but only do it 20 times a year.

[Psyber]

I'm sure you are joking. But I'll respond.

1. I don't approve of drug use, personal reasons due to family members who have had and still do have drug problems

2. I work for the county and have random drug tests so the idea of getting a contact high is doubly annoying to me. I do not stand close enough for that to really be a problem, but that doesn't mean I appreciate people smoking it around me.

3. I rarely ever drink and I never drink if I have to drive.

4. The time I'm at the golf course for league is after I get off of work so it's not like I'm getting out of work to be there. Though I agree, time on the course is more enjoyable that being at work.

In general the post was just expressing that while there are multiple things I don't like about the league I care about spending time with my father enough to put up with them.

This could be an issue with why you don't seem to make friends there. They probably sense that you're judging them and it turns them off.

[Jeremie Boop]

This could be an issue with why you don't seem to make friends there. They probably sense that you're judging them and it turns them off.

Actually, I'm friendly with them all and they are friendly back. There's not one person in the league that I've had a bad interaction with outside of disagreements about me hitting a provisional instead of taking a drop for a potential lost ball or an OB shot. However, that being said, I'm not there to make friends, I'm there to spend time with my father *thought I was pretty clear about that*. A majority of the people in the league are quite a bit older than I am so it's not like I'd be hanging out with them outside of league anyway. Also, a few have asked me if I wanted to partake and I told them "no, never have, never will" they responded "good, it's a bad habit, wish I never started".

[Psyber]

Actually, I'm friendly with them all and they are friendly back. There's not one person in the league that I've had a bad interaction with outside of disagreements about me hitting a provisional instead of taking a drop for a potential lost ball or an OB shot. However, that being said, I'm not there to make friends, I'm there to spend time with my father *thought I was pretty clear about that*. A majority of the people in the league are quite a bit older than I am so it's not like I'd be hanging out with them outside of league anyway. Also, a few have asked me if I wanted to partake and I told them "no, never have, never will" they responded "good, it's a bad habit, wish I never started".

I actually confused you with Dave2512. Too many similar stories in this thread!

[Elmer]

I actually confused you with Dave2512. Too many similar stories in this thread!

Stop drinking smoking pot on the golf course and the confusion clears right up.

[Psyber]

Stop drinking smoking pot on the golf course and the confusion clears right up.

I save it for after. Prefer to play with a clear head. Once the round is over then it's party on.