Solheim Cup Controversy: Who is more at fault?

[natureboy]

After hearing more about the rule relative to what Lee thought she heard, I think the poll needs to have an option for the rules official. But I still think Lee is partially at fault.

[geezer]

Actually Hull and both of the Euro caddies took off the moment the first putt stopped rolling, which made it look like a migration off the green from what I saw on the video clip.  If in that context Lee also thought that she heard a concession, her action was not only understandable, but expected.

Hull and her caddie walk off over towards Pettersen. Pettersens caddie is standing beside the two american caddies and Lincicome. In fact, you can see him watching Lee, as she approaches the ball to scoop it up, then glance over at Pettersen as if to say "Was that conceeded? I don't think so..."

[Zeph]

I believe that neither CH or SP said they said nothing.  They said they had not conceded the putt but Hull said in a later interview they were discussing whether or not to concede the putt.  So if Lee thought she heard "it's good" then the official could have ruled she needed to replace the ball and put since the putt was not conceded.   But apparently SP and CH were considering conceding the putt verbally and confused Lee.

I don't want to make more of this than it is but I still believe everyone told the truth as they knew it and the official blew it.

Here's what happens in the video:

1. Lee hits the putt.
2. Right before it stops, Hull and Pettersen's caddy starts walking onto the green, as they were standing just off it. Presumably towards Pettersen, who appears to be standing on the other side of the green, behind Lee.
3. Hull's caddy was standing with Hull and Pettersen's caddy, and moved a couple of steps, but stays in the area where he stood when the putt was hit. He cranes his neck to maybe try getting contact with Pettersen, and looking at Lee just before she picks up. His actions seems to be pointing towards him not considering the putt conceeded.
4. As Lee is about to bend over and pick up the ball, it seems and sounds like Lincicome is yelling at Lee, telling her not to pick it up, which I believe Lincicome said herself she did. We see both the US caddies reacting by turning towards Lincicome.
5. Based on the TV-footage, Lee did not look at Hull before picking up the ball.
6. Lee picks up the ball. At this point, Hull is still walking towards Pettersen. It's unclear how much they've been able to talk at this point. The crowd is clapping and cheering, but she's been looking in Pettersen's direction for a few seconds.
7. Hull's caddy seems to be wondering what is going on, since the putt was not conceeded, but Lee picks it up. He raises his hand in a "What gives?" gesture.
8. At this point, Hull turns her head around while walking towards Pettersen, maybe because Pettersen saw Lee picking up and called it out.
9. Hull reaches Pettersen and the discussion starts. At this point, the videos on Youtube seem to jump a bit forward in time, so I can't tell what might've happened inbetween.

I don't know how they did it, but if Pettersen was acting as the leader of the European team, maybe Hull didn't conceed the putt, but walked towards Pettersen to discuss it, maybe because Pettersen was the one making calls in the team.

Those saying the Europeans rushed off the green has clearly not seen the videos. We don't have video of Pettersen, but we do have of Hull, and she is actually walking onto the green, presumably in the direction of Pettersen. Which seems like a logical thing to do, as they wanted to discuss wether to give the putt or not. Hull's caddy does not move away from where he was standing, which might indicate that he had not seen or heard Hull conceed the putt.

A lot of posts in this thread blame the Europeans, especially Pettersen, for "rushing off the green", when there is no video evidence supporting this whatsoever. Not even anyone else rushing off the green. The European players are standing apart in a team matchplay. Is it not a logical move to walk towards your playing partner to discuss what to do?

Maybe asking for the participants to actually watch what happened is too much to expect? It's easier to jump on the wagon and scold Pettersen.

[iacas]

@Zeph , whatever you call it, they certainly left the area where they were standing and had all appearances of the hole being conceded and over. The scores were even announced.

Lee absolutely should have made sure her putt was actually conceded, but one can easily understand (IMO) how she might have thought they'd conceded.

[Mr. Desmond]

@Zeph

Some Euros were walking off the green. Seems like someone, Peterson, thought it was time to move to the next tee. She caused a commotion which fueled Lee's decision to think the putt was conceded. Too much gamesmanship -- I think Suzann crossed the line.

[luu5]

@Zeph

Some Euros were walking off the green. Seems like someone, Peterson, thought it was time to move to the next tee. She caused a commotion which fueled Lee's decision to think the putt was conceded. Too much gamesmanship -- I think Suzann crossed the line.

I do not see gamesmanship, I just see confusion. You really think that Pettersen on purpose wanted this to happen?

And if someone asks her if the putt was conceded, or if she says it was not conceded then there is not much that can be done.

[Gunther]

I do not see gamesmanship, I just see confusion. You really think that Pettersen on purpose wanted this to happen? And if someone asks her if the putt was conceded, or if she says it was not conceded then there is not much that can be done.

Read Pettersen's apology. I don't know if she planned on winning the hole that way but it's possible she did.

[Mr. Desmond]

I do not see gamesmanship, I just see confusion. You really think that Pettersen on purpose wanted this to happen?

And if someone asks her if the putt was conceded, or if she says it was not conceded then there is not much that can be done.

The gamemanship was discussed by the media on that day.

Read Pettersen's apology, it's right there. Why was Hull crying? Because she wanted to be part of the gamesmanship?

I think not.

[Zeph]

@Zeph

Some Euros were walking off the green. Seems like someone, Peterson, thought it was time to move to the next tee. She caused a commotion which fueled Lee's decision to think the putt was conceded. Too much gamesmanship -- I think Suzann crossed the line.

Where is the video of Europeans walking off the green? Where is Pettersen?

@Zeph, whatever you call it, they certainly left the area where they were standing and had all appearances of the hole being conceded and over. The scores were even announced.

Lee absolutely should have made sure her putt was actually conceded, but one can easily understand (IMO) how she might have thought they'd conceded.

Absolutely, I can understand Lee picking it up and imagine it can be an easy mistake to make. Lee caused the situation and was penalized for it, no more to discuss there in my opinion. You make a mistake in golf, it can cost you everything, that's what we live by. Even if the intentions were good, the smallest thing can hurt you. Maybe this will make Lee think twice before picking up her ball the next time, even if two members of the other team move around a little, which is not uncommon on the putting green.

It's the media storm that followed, especially the one towards Pettersen I dislike. And I'm trying to reason for why she and the European team did as they did. Lee picked up her ball when she wasn't allowed to, and they wanted to follow the rules and have the US team penalized for it. It's not like they had the option to sit down, mull it over for a couple of hours and think about gamesmanship before making a decision. They wanted to win the cup and the US team made an error that penalized them.

Not because I'm Norwegian and she is too, I don't follow the LPGA much. It's the entire situation and the way the Europeans were smacked down I don't like.

"We made a mistake and you called us out on it, that's poor gamesmanship!"

[geezer]

This is exactly what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about this whole situation.

For a game that prides itself so strongly on the integrity of it's rules and the application thereof, I am utterly unable to fathom how the player(s) sticking to the rules are the ones being vilified here.

EDIT: I should clarify that be 'here', I mean in the general media kerfuffle surrounding this situation, not on this forum specifically.

[Golfingdad]

This is exactly what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about this whole situation. For a game that prides itself so strongly on the integrity of it's rules and the application thereof, I am utterly unable to fathom how the player(s) sticking to the rules are the ones being vilified here. EDIT: I should clarify that be 'here', I mean in the general media kerfuffle surrounding this situation, not on this forum specifically.

For a game that prides itself on etiquette and sportsmanship, to the point that there is even a famous course named "The Concession Club" after an iconic moment by its most iconic player that celebrates pretty much the exact antithesis of what Petterson just pulled, I cannot fathom your lack of ability to fathom. Not to mention the fact that Petterson herself can certainly fathom it because she apologized profusely for what she did.

[geezer]

For a game that prides itself on etiquette and sportsmanship, to the point that there is even a famous course named "The Concession Club" after an iconic moment by its most iconic player that celebrates pretty much the exact antithesis of what Petterson just pulled, I cannot fathom your lack of ability to fathom.

Not to mention the fact that Petterson herself can certainly fathom it because she apologized profusely for what she did.

Thing about a concession is, it has to be offered before it can be accepted.

Also, what did she 'pull' exactly? Is not conceding a short putt... On the 17th hole... Of a major tournament... When the match A/S a crime?

[ay33660]

I and couldn't disagree more.  If you can't win without playing mind games then you are playing the wrong game.  It's one thing in a Saturday match with your buddy, totally another in an actual competition.  Golf is supposed to be a game of honor, not a game of deception and trickery.  If that's what you like, play poker.

Allison said that she thought she heard someone say it was good.  That may have been someone in the gallery, something that none of us has ever had to deal with in a match.  If that was the case, then the ball should have been replaced and putted out.  If that was not the case then the hole stands.  The opponents walking as though they are leaving the green was a bush league stunt.

Really ..... match play golf is a game of honor, not a game of deception and trickery. Now I am certainly not a match play expert as I only play in two match play club tournament a year but what I have observed in my matches - opponents driving shorter than me so they have first shot into the green to put extra pressure on me, opponents giving me a few two footers in the beginning of the match but making me putt out when the getting near the end of the match.

I guess there is a fine line between strategy and deception and trickery.

I have a hard time telling them apart.

As to your comment about Allison being able to replace the ball and to putt out. Wasn't there a referee right there and in a fact was whom SP was talking to. Why didn't he tell Allison to replace the ball and to putt out. Why no heat on the referee?????

Lee ****ed up as the putt was never conceded but no heat on her.

There are many instances whereby opponents ran off toward the next hole before everyone holes out ... even the Americans have done it before.

Premature celebration

The U.S. team spent the night before the Ryder Cup singles matches in 1999 listening to inspirational speeches from, among others, then Texas Gov. George Bush. Then the Americans came out and dominated the final day to come back from a 10-6 deficit to beat Europe. When Justin Leonard holed a 40-footer on the 17th hole to seemingly clinch the win he ran around the green and was swarmed by caddies, wives and teammates. Almost forgotten was that Jose Maria Olazabal still had a putt to tie, which he missed after the green was cleared.

2013 Solheim Cup

Michelle Wie walked off the green after making a  putt on the 16th hole of her fourball match Saturday with Jessica Korda against Europe's Caroline Masson and Caroline Hedwall. The problem was that Masson and Hedwall still hadn't putted yet. Wie and Korda ended up halving the hole and they lost the match 2 & 1 on the 17th

Finally what about the incident in 2000 ......

Annika’s chip

Annika Sorenstam celebrated holing a chip in the 2000 Solheim Cup she thought had evened her fourball match, only to be in tears moments later. The U.S. team was desperately trying to cut into a big European lead, and American Kelly Roberts said Sorenstam had played out of turn. U.S. captain Pat Bradley backed her up. Sorenstam had to hit the chip again, missed and would go on to lose two matches that day. The Europeans would win the cup, but there were plenty of bad feelings about the American move.

I guess that is application of the rules and not deception and trickery so it is different from what happened with SP.

[Valleygolfer]

Really ..... match play golf is a game of honor, not a game of deception and trickery. Now I am certainly not a match play expert as I only play in two match play club tournament a year but what I have observed in my matches - opponents driving shorter than me so they have first shot into the green to put extra pressure on me, opponents giving me a few two footers in the beginning of the match but making me putt out when the getting near the end of the match.  I guess there is a fine line between strategy and deception and trickery. I have a hard time telling them apart. As to your comment about Allison being able to replace the ball and to putt out. Wasn't there a referee right there and in a fact was whom SP was talking to. Why didn't he tell Allison to replace the ball and to putt out. Why no heat on the referee????? Lee ****ed up as the putt was never conceded but no heat on her. There are many instances whereby opponents ran off toward the next hole before everyone holes out ... even the Americans have done it before.

Premature celebration

The U.S. team spent the night before the Ryder Cup singles matches in 1999 listening to inspirational speeches from, among others, then Texas Gov. George Bush. Then the Americans came out and dominated the final day to come back from a 10-6 deficit to beat Europe. When Justin Leonard holed a 40-footer on the 17th hole to seemingly clinch the win he ran around the green and was swarmed by caddies, wives and teammates. Almost forgotten was that Jose Maria Olazabal still had a putt to tie, which he missed after the green was cleared.

2013 Solheim Cup Michelle Wie walked off the green after making a  putt on the 16th hole of her fourball match Saturday with Jessica Korda against Europe's Caroline Masson and Caroline Hedwall. The problem was that Masson and Hedwall still hadn't putted yet. Wie and Korda ended up halving the hole and they lost the match 2 & 1 on the 17th Finally what about the incident in 2000 ......

Annika’s chip

Annika Sorenstam celebrated holing a chip in the 2000 Solheim Cup she thought had evened her fourball match, only to be in tears moments later. The U.S. team was desperately trying to cut into a big European lead, and American Kelly Roberts said Sorenstam had played out of turn. U.S. captain Pat Bradley backed her up. Sorenstam had to hit the chip again, missed and would go on to lose two matches that day. The Europeans would win the cup, but there were plenty of bad feelings about the American move.

I guess that is application of the rules and not deception and trickery so it is different from what happened with SP.

You sound whiney. Putt your putts out if you want to. I watched the Euro's bust it off the green to the next hole quite a few times. It just looked disrespectful and deliberate. I never noticed this any other time in match play rounds.

[imsys0042]

I doubt anyone is going to change their mind about this, but I'm glad that the golf media has moved on and I think that this is one of the rarer instances where things resolved. Ultimately Lee is responsible to clarify and has control over her ball. However there's enough conflicting thoughts where the Euros, notably SP, went too far in the situation. I found Petterson's apology to be true and heartfelt and I am struck that she said that they had gone too far instead of justifying what happened. Although technically within the rules, I feel that calling it like that was unsportsmanlike given the misunderstandings. Just like I think it was wrong to force replaying the chip shot in 2000. Ultimately the best golf is about you playing your best and beating an opponent who is playing their best. These cups are becoming more about winning at any cost and while it drives eyeballs and passion, you tend to lose something as well. I'm glad for how it turned out. No hard feelings from me. And I have to say that the level of discourse here has been great, especially compared to the comments sections on golf web sites. I really feel for Petterson if some of those people are in the LPGA crowds. Jeez...

[Mr. Desmond]

Where is the video of Europeans walking off the green? Where is Pettersen?

Look at post 167, 23 seconds in. That's a lot of movement.

Is that what you do when an opponent has another putt?

And I like Petterson... everyone makes a mistake.

So what you are saying is that her apology was fake or she was pressured to lie about an apology?

Kind of weird...

[Scotsclaff]

I feel the same and I've already said it in the thread, I think was encouraged to apologise.

[Zeph]

Look at post 167, 23 seconds in. That's a lot of movement.

Is that what you do when an opponent has another putt?

And I like Petterson... everyone makes a mistake.

So what you are saying is that her apology was fake or she was pressured to lie about an apology?

Kind of weird...

They are clearly not walking off the green. They are walking onto the green.

And yes, if I'm in a match play and want to discuss whether to conceed the putt or not, I would move from where I was standing, to where my playing partner is standing.

I don't have any opinion about her apology, other than that it was a good move. Nobody knows how she personally feels. Many have made statements and apologized for something just to save face before.