World Handicap System Now Out (2020)

[natureboy]

  On 11/24/2015 at 6:59 PM, DrvFrShow said:

You can do that now. You can go out on the course and mess around. No USGA official is looking over your shoulder. I've played 18 holes without a scorecard and just made notes. Who cares? Need bunker practice? Hit 3 or 4 balls out of the bunker next time you're in one if you're not being rushed. My pro told me to do that when I'm playing solo. Most driving ranges don't have practice bunkers or pitching areas unless you belong to a country club.

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Can is not the same as 'should' per the wording of the HCP honor system. But I get your point and have considered doing that anyway. I finally found a range not too far from me that has a bunker next to the range I can us for some fwy bunker practice.

[iacas]

  On 11/24/2015 at 5:53 PM, turtleback said:

The daily rating is my main concern as well.  The big question is WHO does the daily rating and HOW standardized is it.  How involved is it?  How long does it take to determine the correct adjustment?

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I don't understand.

I imagine it'll simply be a mathematical calculation. There likely will be no "who" involved.

  On 11/24/2015 at 5:53 PM, turtleback said:

And an even bigger question is: how can they get compliance when we hear so many stories here about courses that really do not give a damn about doing things the right way (mis-marking, invalid local rules, non-enforcement of (their own) pace of play standards, etc.).

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Those things will simply lower the effective course rating that day.

For example, if players thick trees as a drop when it's really a lost ball most of the time, the course rating might be 72.3 but the way they play it will lower the course rating. So the course will effectively play "easier" that day (and every day).

Same holds if they play from easier tees than were used to determine the rating.

Courses are rated assuming that the course is played as it should be marked, and from the proper tees.

  On 11/24/2015 at 5:53 PM, turtleback said:

What makes them think courses will be more compliant in THIS area than they have historically been in these other areas? Are the governing bodies going to audit courses to make sure they are determining their adjustments properly?

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They don't have to be. I don't get what you're saying: there's no compliance necessary. Players report scores, the computer spits out a new handicap every two weeks. The course doesn't have to "do" anything, nor is there a "who" that has to do something new - players are a "who" but they just put their scores in as always.

I feel like you haven't read most of the posts in this thread yet…

  On 11/24/2015 at 6:12 PM, natureboy said:

I think this is also similar in concept to how the PGA does adjusted scoring to account for different courses played or how Broadie adjusts strokes gained by the field average to account for better / worse scoring per course and playing conditions differences.

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Probably. Two good examples there.

  On 11/24/2015 at 6:12 PM, natureboy said:

As far as the article, one interesting bit was the emphasis on the not every round need be scored for HCP idea. One reason I haven't registered for an official handicap is I don't want to have to enter a score every time I step on a course. I want to go out sometimes and 'mess about' playing practice rounds with more than one ball (if course is empty) to explore and get more comfortable hitting certain shots.

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You can do that now. There are plenty of times i play a practice round and hit extra shots, skip shots if I'd rather help my daughter that hole, etc.

  On 11/24/2015 at 6:54 PM, JoeSeaton said:

I know it's really really really off topic and I'm so sorry but how do I get some of the TST alignment sticks thanks and sorry again I can't  find the answer anywhere 

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We don't sell them currently. Maybe we'll get some more and sell them again.

  On 11/24/2015 at 6:59 PM, DrvFrShow said:

Why don't I have much confidence in the system? Computers? They have to be maintained.

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Seriously? They already run the whole GHIN system. It's 2015… and will be 2018. You don't have confidence in the ability of computers to… do what exactly?

  On 11/24/2015 at 6:59 PM, DrvFrShow said:

The local information regarding conditions has to be entered daily.

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No, it doesn't. Players will just enter scores.

  On 11/24/2015 at 6:59 PM, DrvFrShow said:

However, what I see as a big improvement is the uniformity between organizations. This isn't for us hackers. This is for the young amateurs who compete on a national and international level.

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I doubt it. They aren't using handicaps in their competitions.

For example, go to Wikipedia and look up how you qualify for the U.S. Amateur.

[Rulesman]

  On 11/23/2015 at 9:47 PM, iacas said:

Well, scheduled for 2018, the world will see a unified handicapping system.

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The target date that the England Golf representatives on CONGU have just reported to me and my colleagues at England Golf is 2020.

 

Incidentally the SSS (Standard Scratch Score) referred to in the OP is the direct equivalent to the Course Rating for a scratch player.

Both CONGU and the EGA (European Golf Association)(using the CONGU system with Slope) have a sort of daily course rating for individual competitions called the Competition Scratch Score by CONGU. Both systems are of course competition based.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Rulesman

[Dave2512]

Wonder how this affects places in the US with an offseason. Would be nice to post scores all year. Using daily scores could be a way to get around the abnormal conditions that seem to be the reason we don't return offseason scores.

In CO I don't see massive variances due to winter vs summer golf once the courses get to a consistent state. It would also help with the weird transitional periods when we aren't offseason but the courses play weird, sandy greens, leaves on the ground, dirt plugs all over etc. Daily rating makes sense if enough scores are returned. 

[Valleygolfer]

I'm good with unifying HC but agree that the daily conditions may be tough for accuracy due to lack of reporting (by golfers) on some tracks. I think that it will be fine because it will average out as long as you don't play a course all the time with low score turn ins.  

[Pete]

As Rulesman mentioned, in the UK our system only has the adjusted rating for competitions. As I'm sure some of you will know, our handicaps are based virtually exclusively on competition results. We cannot turn up at a public course, record a score and have that score affect our handicap.

I can't see how a daily adjusted rating could be calculated without all the scores being returned under competition conditions. I.e. all scores are under full rules of golf and marked/signed by another competitor in the same competition.

I'd be interested to read more on what scores would be used by the global system.

 

[iacas]

  On 11/30/2015 at 12:59 PM, Valleygolfer said:

I'm good with unifying HC but agree that the daily conditions may be tough for accuracy due to lack of reporting (by golfers) on some tracks. I think that it will be fine because it will average out as long as you don't play a course all the time with low score turn ins.  

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As mentioned, I imagine that if not enough scores are returned, the rating for that day will simply be the assigned, measured rating. They're not going to take three scores and assume the course played seven strokes tougher that day because they were all bad scores.

  On 11/30/2015 at 1:39 PM, Pete said:

As Rulesman mentioned, in the UK our system only has the adjusted rating for competitions. As I'm sure some of you will know, our handicaps are based virtually exclusively on competition results. We cannot turn up at a public course, record a score and have that score affect our handicap.

I can't see how a daily adjusted rating could be calculated without all the scores being returned under competition conditions. I.e. all scores are under full rules of golf and marked/signed by another competitor in the same competition.

I'd be interested to read more on what scores would be used by the global system.

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You don't have to attempt to see it, you just have to look at the system we use in the U.S. right now. Every time you play golf, you can turn in a handicap so long as you play 7 or 13 holes and follow the Rules of Golf.

[Lihu]

For most golfers, it's probably not going to change anything. . .
seems like a good thing to do.

The daily rating is probably only going to be a couple strokes one way or another? The wind blows in your favor at least half the time?

[Dormie1360]

Talked to someone who recently returned from a USGA/R&A conference regarding handicap unification. The USGA is putting a lot of money into this, it's going to happen.  Microsoft will be maintaining the cloud, don't know where. If I understood correctly, this is for everyone.   GHIN, TPP, etc. will all be cloud based.  The impression I got is that, at least on the State Association Level, people responsible for GHIN have a wait and see attitude.  They have a lot of the same questions and concerns everyone else does.

Also sounded like "revision dates" are going away.  Goodbye to your index changing only on the 1st and 15th.

[sjduffers]

It's going to be much harder to get a proper daily rating on public courses than it would be at private clubs, with fewer players participating in the handicap system (aren't all club players automatically enrolled in GHIN and advised to post their score at the pro-shop computer?), and with the facility not doing things right: have you ever been given a pin sheet at a generic public course (not talking about the prestigious ones like Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, etc...)?

Does the Pro at those public courses even know where the pins are on any given day? Yet, the greenkeeping staff locates the pin wherever they damn please it seems, it could be harder or easier than the rating, and sometimes just impossible (and against the USGA recommendations of 4-5 paces from the edges, somewhat flat area around the hole, accommodating the type of shot getting onto the green, etc...).  I have seen pin placements where the ball either goes in the hole or rolls back more than 10 feet, resulting in 3 to 5 putts for nearly everyone, all from within 10 feet!  How does that affect the daily rating?

Also, it will be impossible to keep track of one's handicap on their own computer, via spreadsheet or whatever.  I have done this now for years and my index matches my GHIN one 100% of the time.  Yes, I am OCD when it comes to my scores and data: I like to keep my own database and not trust all that data to a provider that may go away or charge more than I want, or do whatever else with my data as a hostage.

Between that and the playing solo thing, I may have to keep doing things my own way (which currently mirrors what the USGA is doing) and letting my computed index diverge from the official one.  At least I would know how I am evolving without changing the method midway through...

[iacas]

  On 12/2/2015 at 2:04 AM, sjduffers said:

It's going to be much harder to get a proper daily rating on public courses than it would be at private clubs, with fewer players participating in the handicap system (aren't all club players automatically enrolled in GHIN and advised to post their score at the pro-shop computer?), and with the facility not doing things right: have you ever been given a pin sheet at a generic public course (not talking about the prestigious ones like Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, etc...)?

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What does a pin sheet have to do with anything?

And again, people seem to be missing this… I imagine that if not enough rounds are posted on a given day, they'll simply default to the course rating as rated by the ratings teams.

  On 12/2/2015 at 2:04 AM, sjduffers said:

Does the Pro at those public courses even know where the pins are on any given day? Yet, the greenkeeping staff locates the pin wherever they damn please it seems, it could be harder or easier than the rating

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I don't understand why you seem to be stuck on pin sheets.

  On 12/2/2015 at 2:04 AM, sjduffers said:

Yet, the greenkeeping staff locates the pin wherever they damn please it seems, it could be harder or easier than the rating

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The superintendent shouldn't have cut the hole there. That's all there is to it. You can't account for human goofiness in screwing things up.

  On 12/2/2015 at 2:04 AM, sjduffers said:

Also, it will be impossible to keep track of one's handicap on their own computer, via spreadsheet or whatever.  I have done this now for years and my index matches my GHIN one 100% of the time. Yes, I am OCD when it comes to my scores and data: I like to keep my own database and not trust all that data to a provider that may go away or charge more than I want, or do whatever else with my data as a hostage.

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Just keep it based on the stock course rating and slope. I think the tradeoff that you might not be accurate to the tenth is a good one. Do what you say you'll have to do: keep track of yours as always and keep your USGA handicap.

[Pretzel]

  On 12/2/2015 at 2:04 AM, sjduffers said:

Yet, the greenkeeping staff locates the pin wherever they damn please it seems

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That is not true on about 90% of golf courses. As a previous maintenance worker at a public course, they have set pin positions to minimize wear on the green as you rotate through the different possibilities. Within each position there is wiggle room for the pro's discretion, yes, but not as much as you seem to think.

[sjduffers]

  On 12/2/2015 at 4:04 AM, Pretzel said:

That is not true on about 90% of golf courses. As a previous maintenance worker at a public course, they have set pin positions to minimize wear on the green as you rotate through the different possibilities. Within each position there is wiggle room for the pro's discretion, yes, but not as much as you seem to think.

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That may be true at some or even most places, but i've seen numerous situations where the hole was cut in aeras which conflict plainly with the USGA recommendations, and not just on the "let's-make-it-real-goofy" tournament day that some courses have once in a while.

@iacas, the reason i am bringing pin locations and pin sheet is because you mentioned that the daily rating will/may depend on the difficulty of the course setup, including pin placement. While there is no doubt that pin placement can affect scoring, it should be done in a somewhat controlled manner and not just by cutting  holes in the middle of steep slopes just because there is less wear and tear there. When a single hole placement adds 2 strokes to the average score, you know that something is not right...

Overall, the new handicap system with daily rating may be a good or at least a better thing, but i will reserve judgement until i see more about it. The devil is in the details as they say. ;)

[iacas]

  On 12/2/2015 at 5:02 AM, sjduffers said:

That may be true at some or even most places, but i've seen numerous situations where the hole was cut in aeras which conflict plainly with the USGA recommendations, and not just on the "let's-make-it-real-goofy" tournament day that some courses have once in a while.

@iacas, the reason i am bringing pin locations and pin sheet is because you mentioned that the daily rating will/may depend on the difficulty of the course setup, including pin placement. While there is no doubt that pin placement can affect scoring, it should be done in a somewhat controlled manner and not just by cutting  holes in the middle of steep slopes just because there is less wear and tear there. When a single hole placement adds 2 strokes to the average score, you know that something is not right...

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Honestly… a hole placement that adds two strokes to the average score is so far outside the norm, such a huge exception, that it's simply not really worth considering.

I've seen maybe three of those types of hole locations outside of "Hell Day" type tournaments in a few thousand rounds of golf. If your home course has them frequently enough that it matters to you, someone needs to talk to the guy cutting the holes, plain and simple.

[sjduffers]

  On 12/2/2015 at 5:26 AM, iacas said:

I've seen maybe three of those types of hole locations outside of "Hell Day" type tournaments in a few thousand rounds of golf. If your home course has them frequently enough that it matters to you, someone needs to talk to the guy cutting the holes, plain and simple.

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I don't disagree with this (double negative, ah!), but just so you know, I don't have one home course but frequent several munis in the area, as well as some other semi-private or daily fee courses, and there is one hole on each of at least 3 munis where it's prone to happening.

I even saw it happen at one of these venues during a tournament run by the NCGA (Northern California GA): the officials couldn't believe it but reckoned that it was affecting everyone the same way so it was "fair". It wasn't really, but that's ok: that's not the reason why I didn't advance to the next round... ;)

The folks cutting the hole don't always play golf, and the pro isn't necessarily aware it's happening... But enough rambling that is somewhat   

 

Edited December 2, 2015 by sjduffers

[Dave2512]

There are days our course plays tougher. For example if the men's club has a tournament the course typically has more bite than usual but's it's not several strokes more difficult. I can't think of any courses here that doesn't have sizable leagues so there is always going to be a steady stream of people returning scores. My guess is in season there are at least 40 scores a day being returned by club members and golfers that keep a handicap at our course. With two league days a week those days it will be hundreds of scores. And it's an out of the way course in a small town.

But more than setup quirks I think the daily rating has a greater chance of being affected by weather. Those silly summer days where it's 90 but really breezy or a storm blows through and tortures everyone out there for an entire side.

[Golfingdad]

Just read through this whole thread after seeing it linked over here:

 

I like the idea a lot.  Looking forward to it.  I'm also a little perplexed at seeing all of the confusion about the daily rating thing.  I feel like people are not understanding that the daily rating would be back-calculated by a computer after all of the scores for the day were turned in ... not estimated by the pro or greenskeeper in the morning when they set the pins or checked the weather.  If a pin is put in such a goofy spot that everybody 4 putts, then it will be reflected in the daily rating.  I think that makes perfect sense.  In fact, I recently played in a tournament where that actually happened.  On about 3 holes, every group had a story about a played who 3 or 4 putted (one guy flat out quit) the tricky pin location.  It's a safe bet that the daily rating for that course that day would have been a bit higher than its baseline.

[natureboy]

It makes sense as golf is evolving to be more of a global game.

The daily adjustment almost seems like it would be an incentive to keep an official HCP (if low is your aim) as you will get a little help on bad weather days.