To Search or not to Search?

[jamo]

I voted a soft "yes." I'll give it a quick look around but I'm not going to give it more than a cursory pass.

[Golfingdad]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

It goes back to the first sentence. Finding his ball is not a "worst case scenario." Finding his ball and telling him "hey, look, here's your ball sitting up in a nice spot" is both within the rules and maintains your integrity.

If you casually glance, you're probably not going to find his ball in a horrible spot. If you don't look at all, though, you remove the chance of finding his ball after a lucky break.

The "worst case scenario" is that someone does something both against the rules AND that makes them a jerk.

Gotcha ... but that's not what I meant by worst case scenario.  I meant competition-wise.  If you don't look, your opponent/FC is making a 4.  If you do look and find it, it's possible he's taking an unplayable and likely making 4 or worse, or he has to go back and re-tee and its also likely he's making 4 or worse, or ... worst case scenario, you find it sitting nicely and he's making a 3.

Considering that the reason people are looking is because they believe its to their advantage to find his ball, then an action taken that results in him making a par is the worst of all of the choices.

[iacas]

Just now, Golfingdad said:

Gotcha ... but that's not what I meant by worst case scenario.  I meant competition-wise.  If you don't look, your opponent/FC is making a 4.  If you do look and find it, it's possible he's taking an unplayable and likely making 4 or worse, or he has to go back and re-tee and its also likely he's making 4 or worse, or ... worst case scenario, you find it sitting nicely and he's making a 3.

Considering that the reason people are looking is because they believe its to their advantage to find his ball, then an action taken that results in him making a par is the worst of all of the choices.

Yeah, I don't see that as "worst case scenario." It's the truth. It's what actually happened. It's neither good nor bad.

I know that you're saying for you but for him it's the "best case scenario." Semantics, sure, but again I just see that as the truth, not a "scenario" one way or the other.

---

I'm still not looking for very long, though. If he doesn't want to find it, and if I can't find it quickly, it probably benefits him not to locate the ball.

[Abu3baid]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah, I don't see that as "worst case scenario." It's the truth. It's what actually happened. It's neither good nor bad.

I know that you're saying for you but for him it's the "best case scenario." Semantics, sure, but again I just see that as the truth, not a "scenario" one way or the other.

---

I'm still not looking for very long, though. If he doesn't want to find it, and if I can't find it quickly, it probably benefits him not to locate the ball.

I have to admit I'm surprised that you would even look at all since he isn't looking and obviously doesn't want you to look.. We had this same conversation in another thread and you specifically said it is an "uncool" thing to do and that it is a loop hole.  Are you changing your mind now that it is ok to give it a quick look see?  

 

 

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I have to admit I'm surprised that you would even look at all since he isn't looking and obviously doesn't want you to look.. We had this same conversation in another thread and you specifically said it is an "uncool" thing to do and that it is a loop hole.  Are you changing your mind now that it is ok to give it a quick look see?

Your memory was close but not exactly spot on.

I was answering in response to a post @Fourputt made, and I called it "not cool" (because that's how it's often seen by people) yet perfectly within the rules. I likened it to hiding the baseball in the first basemen's glove. Perfectly legal, but viewed by many as tacky.

I said before that I could change my mind on this one, and my use of quotes to say "not cool" earlier indicate then that I wasn't dead set on that position. It's the kind of thing I'd judge on a case by case basis.

[Fourputt]

This has nothing to do with the obligation of protecting the field, because that only applies if a rule is being broken.  In this case, nobody is ignoring a rules breach.  This is simply about showing enough respect for your opponent or fellow competitor to grant his request to not search for his ball if he chooses to not do so.  I see it as part of the game that involves gentlemanly behavior.  

If he does begin to look for his ball, then I will try to help him until such time as he abandons the search.  I've played by this code for as long as I can remember, and I'm not about to change it now.

[Club Rat]

4 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Nope.  I dislike gamesmanship in any form.

I agree 100%, golf is a Gentleman's game. The player indicates he wishes not to search, so why be a jerk and look?

[Abu3baid]

 

16 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I agree 100%, golf is a Gentleman's game. The player indicates he wishes not to search, so why be a jerk and look?

If the player didn't wish to look then why call out a provisional?  Why not just go ahead and play his third and save us the drama?  IMO he is the one playing games.. Would he have made the same choice if he didn't hit to inches of the cup?  

[Fourputt]

2 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

 

If the player didn't wish to look then why call out a provisional?  Why not just go ahead and play his third and save us the drama?  IMO he is the one playing games.. Would he have made the same choice if he didn't hit to inches of the cup?  

He may not realize his predicament until he gets to where the ball was last seen.

[SavvySwede]

2 hours ago, jamo said:

I voted a soft "yes." I'll give it a quick look around but I'm not going to give it more than a cursory pass.

Pretty much, nothing wrong with a little glance. Now if the next tee box were off to the left I wouldn't waste time looking over to the right. Pace of play and all that.

[Golfingdad]

13 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

 

If the player didn't wish to look then why call out a provisional?  Why not just go ahead and play his third and save us the drama?  IMO he is the one playing games.. Would he have made the same choice if he didn't hit to inches of the cup?  

Because

A) he has no idea how good he's going to hit the next one.  Why would anybody ever completely give up the option of playing a ball when they didn't have to?  I've sliced balls that clearly went 80 yards OB ... But it costs me nothing to say provisional on the off chance that it did something crazy - Like Phil Mickelson at Torrey 18th - so I do just to be safe.

B) There's also no way to know how bad your predicament is from the tee.  Often times it's not until you start to get near the area that you realize how dire a situation your ball might be in.

[newtogolf]

I voted yes for both questions but there are a number of circumstance that could sway my vote.  

[Abu3baid]

35 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Because

A) he has no idea how good he's going to hit the next one.  Why would anybody ever completely give up the option of playing a ball when they didn't have to?  I've sliced balls that clearly went 80 yards OB ... But it costs me nothing to say provisional on the off chance that it did something crazy - Like Phil Mickelson at Torrey 18th - so I do just to be safe.

B) There's also no way to know how bad your predicament is from the tee.  Often times it's not until you start to get near the area that you realize how dire a situation your ball might be in.

In the example used he knew he hit it into trees.. It wasn't a surprise to him or anyone else that he was pulling out anothe ball to hit again..  He only chose to not take a quick look himself after he saw what a great shot he hit.. Since if he looked he would have only a couple choices and none of which are tapping in for bogie.

[Fourputt]

I'm really surprised at the number of members here who only believe in "win at all costs", regardless of the ill will that such a decision is likely to cause.  Do none of you have any respect for the players you are competing against?  Or are you so lacking in confidence in your own abilities that you have to resort of this sort of underhandedness to be competitive?  Anyway you look at it, it's a pretty sad statement about the game today.

[Abu3baid]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

I'm really surprised at the number of members here who only believe in "win at all costs", regardless of the ill will that such a decision is likely to cause.  Do none of you have any respect for the players you are competing against?  Or are you so lacking in confidence in your own abilities that you have to resort of this sort of underhandedness to be competitive?  Anyway you look at it, it's a pretty sad statement about the game today.

The rules are there for a reason are they not.. I feel like we are rehashing the same argument.. The player can make it simple and not declare a provisional and then not go looking for his ball,.  Why is he resorting to this sort of underhandedness anyway?  It's a pretty sad way for him to try and abuse the rules as they exist.

heck, why not change the rules and make it so that after you hit a provisional you can choose which one you want to play?

[Fourputt]

Just now, Abu3baid said:

The rules are there for a reason are they not.. I feel like we are rehashing the same argument.. The player can make it simple and not declare a provisional and then not go looking for his ball,.  Why is he resorting to this sort of underhandedness anyway?  It's a pretty sad way for him to try and abuse the rules as they exist.

heck, why not change the rules and make it so that after you hit a provisional you can choose which one you want to play?

This is simple question about respecting your opponent.  I don't question his motives for playing a provisional ball, or for ultimately choosing not to search.  In most cases, I'm already two strokes up on him in the hole, so why should I rub it in?  

[Golfingdad]

5 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

In the example used he knew he hit it into trees.. It wasn't a surprise to him or anyone else that he was pulling out anothe ball to hit again..  He only chose to not take a quick look himself after he saw what a great shot he hit.. Since if he looked he would have only a couple choices and none of which are tapping in for bogie.

There's no earthly reason why somebody wouldn't call the next shot a provisional.  There's no downside. He saw it go into the trees and maybe even heard a clank but would've had no idea what happened next.  For all he knows, it ricocheted out and in between a couple of bunkers and into the hole for a one.  It would be idiotic NOT to call it a provisional.

5 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I'm really surprised at the number of members here who only believe in "win at all costs", regardless of the ill will that such a decision is likely to cause.  Do none of you have any respect for the players you are competing against?  Or are you so lacking in confidence in your own abilities that you have to resort of this sort of underhandedness to be competitive?  Anyway you look at it, it's a pretty sad statement about the game today.

Maybe the better question to ask should be "How would you feel about your opponent if you were the player that hit the two shots and he went and found your first one against your wishes?"

[natureboy]

if the course is crowded and there's only a few bucks on the line skip the search.

Any official tournament esp medal play search away.