To Search or not to Search?

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, turtleback said:

So again, I say, given the unusual circumstances that give rise to the player asking for his ball not be searched for I still say he is being the dick, because he would have wanted his ball searched for if he had dunked the provisional, or hit even a mediocre shot.  I know that FOR A FACT because otherwise he would not have declared it a provisional in the first place.  The rules say you have to declare a provisional.  When the opponent says not to look, what he really is doing is asking you to defacto ignore his provisional declaration and treat it as if he hit under 27-1 when he actually hit under 27-2.  It may not violate the rules, but it sure is gaming them.

Here's the thing for me...no matter which side of this situation I'm on, I would rarely get upset with my opponent doing whatever he's done.  I find that getting irritated or mad, that deciding he's a "dick", any of that is at very best a complete waste of my emotional energy, and at worst is detrimental to my game.  Accept him at face value, accept his actions calmly, then go crush him with your play,  shake his hand at the end, and enjoy a beer with him in the clubhouse.  

[Fourputt]

35 minutes ago, turtleback said:

See, here is the thing.  The only time this really arises is when the provisional is very very very good.  The reality is that I would always look for my own ball even if I pured the provisional down the middle because there just aren't that many places so bad (Kevin Na notwithstanding) that I can't get to where my provisional is with 2 more shots.  

So again, I say, given the unusual circumstances that give rise to the player asking for his ball not be searched for I still say he is being the dick, because he would have wanted his ball searched for if he had dunked the provisional, or hit even a mediocre shot.  I know that FOR A FACT because otherwise he would not have declared it a provisional in the first place.  The rules say you have to declare a provisional.  When the opponent says not to look, what he really is doing is asking you to defacto ignore his provisional declaration and treat it as if he hit under 27-1 when he actually hit under 27-2.  It may not violate the rules, but it sure is gaming them.

Man, you need to be in the native rough at Foothills sometime.  When I hit a ball out there and I know that it's in there, I just hit another ball under stroke and distance and don't even bother with it.

[Golfingdad]

37 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Here's the thing for me...no matter which side of this situation I'm on, I would rarely get upset with my opponent doing whatever he's done.  I find that getting irritated or mad, that deciding he's a "dick", any of that is at very best a complete waste of my emotional energy, and at worst is detrimental to my game.  Accept him at face value, accept his actions calmly, then go crush him with your play,  shake his hand at the end, and enjoy a beer with him in the clubhouse.  

Great attitude.

[DrvFrShow]

I think it ultimately depends upon the situation. In a friendly match I seriously doubt you'd search for the ball. In a serious match, the likelihood that you would search goes up depending upon how well they hit their provisional and where they hit their original ball. 

[turtleback]

On 3/4/2016 at 11:28 AM, Fourputt said:

Man, you need to be in the native rough at Foothills sometime.  When I hit a ball out there and I know that it's in there, I just hit another ball under stroke and distance and don't even bother with it.

OK, but I have no idea what this has to do with this discussion.

[Fourputt]

21 minutes ago, turtleback said:

OK, but I have no idea what this has to do with this discussion.

You said:

On 3/4/2016 at 11:28 AM, Fourputt said:

there just aren't that many places so bad (Kevin Na notwithstanding) that I can't get to where my provisional is with 2 more shots.

I was showing an example of a place where you can get to where 2 more strokes might move the ball 3 or 4 feet.  In one of my last men's club matches, my opponent was in exactly the spot where I took that photo, and he chose to try and play from it - 5 strokes later he was finally in the mowed rough and he hadn't advanced the ball more than 15 yards.  Several of the fairways at Foothills are bordered by that stuff after you pass the mowed rough, and it's very much in play.

[Big Lex]

It's a tough question. It is certainly "friendlier" to just let the player do as he chooses.

Is there a rule or decision that you must search for your ball? The fact that it's named a "provisional" ball, and that the rule states it is to "save time," the implication is that you should try to find the original ball. I think even though it would hurt the other player and would maybe be interpreted as nasty to find the ball, I think you treat it like any other lost ball situation and you help look and try to find it. You use common sense when deciding to call off the search....if everyone saw the ball bounce into a specific area of the woods and it seems likely it can be located with a diligent search, then you look hard. If it was a high plains drifter, hauling as$ deep into the forest where it's landing spot is anyone's guess, you call it off much earlier.  

 

...on the flip side, if I were the person who hit the provisional, I would not begrudge anyone else finding my ball, even if it meant I ended up with a worse score. It's sort of like that old "conning yourself" thread around here. I don't like to "benefit" from the rules in a case like this - even if it's 100% legal - and later have the feeling that whatever my score ended up being wasn't completely authentic.

[Golfingdad]

22 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

You said:

I was showing an example of a place where you can get to where 2 more strokes might move the ball 3 or 4 feet.  In one of my last men's club matches, my opponent was in exactly the spot where I took that photo, and he chose to try and play from it - 5 strokes later he was finally in the mowed rough and he hadn't advanced the ball more than 15 yards.  Several of the fairways at Foothills are bordered by that stuff after you pass the mowed rough, and it's very much in play.

Well, technically, the guy in the picture is well within two club lengths of the short rough, so it's not a great example. 

But I'm only joking of course, because your point stands if hes only 6 feet to the left of where he's currently standing. 

[boogielicious]

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Well, technically, the guy in the picture is well within two club lengths of the short rough, so it's not a great example. 

But I'm only joking of course, because your point stands if hes only 6 feet to the left of where he's currently standing. 

But rule 28-b allows you to go back. So there is a chance they can find an open spot more than two club lengths back. Depends on the hole. The OP however appears to make that not an option.

Quote

b.

Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

 

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

It's a tough question. It is certainly "friendlier" to just let the player do as he chooses.

Is there a rule or decision that you must search for your ball? The fact that it's named a "provisional" ball, and that the rule states it is to "save time," the implication is that you should try to find the original ball. I think even though it would hurt the other player and would maybe be interpreted as nasty to find the ball, I think you treat it like any other lost ball situation and you help look and try to find it. You use common sense when deciding to call off the search....if everyone saw the ball bounce into a specific area of the woods and it seems likely it can be located with a diligent search, then you look hard. If it was a high plains drifter, hauling as$ deep into the forest where it's landing spot is anyone's guess, you call it off much earlier.  

 

The only implication behind playing a provisional ball is that some uncertainty exists as to whether or not the original ball might be lost outside of a water hazard or out of bounds.  There is nothing implied about searching or not searching.  

For me, the decision of whether or not I search is purely situational, but the fact that I played a provisional does not lock me into performing a search.

[Big Lex]

2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

The only implication behind playing a provisional ball is that some uncertainty exists as to whether or not the original ball might be lost outside of a water hazard or out of bounds.  There is nothing implied about searching or not searching.  

For me, the decision of whether or not I search is purely situational, but the fact that I played a provisional does not lock me into performing a search.

I see your point but I still think that looking for your ball is sort of implied in general. Especially if they are talking about "saving time." I wonder if there has ever been a decision on this point.

[Big C]

20 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I see your point but I still think that looking for your ball is sort of implied in general. Especially if they are talking about "saving time." I wonder if there has ever been a decision on this point.

The declarer (of the provisional) is under no obligation to search for the first ball. Conversely the opponent, is allotted 5 minutes to search if he believes that finding the ball would be beneficial to him. The decision that speaks to this is 27-2b/1.

It's interesting because most people understand the "5 minute" rule as pertaining to YOUR ball alone, but clearly that is not the way the rule is written. 

[Big Lex]

1 minute ago, Big C said:

The declarer (of the provisional) is under no obligation to search for the first ball. Conversely the opponent, is allotted 5 minutes to search if he believes that finding the ball would be beneficial to him. The decision that speaks to this is 27-2b/1.

It's interesting because most people understand the "5 minute" rule as pertaining to YOUR ball alone, but clearly that is not the way the rule is written. 

Thanks!

[DaveP043]

24 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I see your point but I still think that looking for your ball is sort of implied in general. Especially if they are talking about "saving time." I wonder if there has ever been a decision on this point.

You can always look up the decisions at the USGA website.  There is nothing in the rules or decisions that requires a player to search for his own ball.  I think the USGA rarely implies anything, they try to write the rules and decisions so that we poor players don't have to read between the lines.

[Pretzel]

50 minutes ago, Big C said:

The declarer (of the provisional) is under no obligation to search for the first ball. Conversely the opponent, is allotted 5 minutes to search if he believes that finding the ball would be beneficial to him. The decision that speaks to this is 27-2b/1.

In other words, it's a race between the competitors to see if the ball will be found first, or if the player will be able to play his/her provisional ball first. In match play, even if played out of turn, it says that it still counts the original ball as lost even if the stroke that made it a lost ball is replayed later due to playing out of turn.

[Fourputt]

15 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

In other words, it's a race between the competitors to see if the ball will be found first, or if the player will be able to play his/her provisional ball first. In match play, even if played out of turn, it says that it still counts the original ball as lost even if the stroke that made it a lost ball is replayed later due to playing out of turn.

That's a point that I hadn't considered, but I agree.  It really doesn't matter if it's match play or stroke play.  The moment that the provisional ball is played from a point at or nearer to the hole than where the original ball is thought to be, the original ball is lost.  The stroke may still be recalled in match play if made out of order, but the original ball is still deemed lost.  I can't see any way that a ball which is lost can become unlost.  

So back to the OP - run to your provisional ball and tap it in.  Even if your opponent recalls the stroke, that ball is still the ball in play.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

That's a point that I hadn't considered, but I agree.  It really doesn't matter if it's match play or stroke play.  The moment that the provisional ball is played from a point at or nearer to the hole than where the original ball is thought to be, the original ball is lost.  The stroke may still be recalled in match play if made out of order, but the original ball is still deemed lost.  I can't see any way that a ball which is lost can become unlost.  

So back to the OP - run to your provisional ball and tap it in.  Even if your opponent recalls the stroke, that ball is still the ball in play.

LOL, I believe the OP was on the other side, he has to run and search if he wants to search.  Either way, I never realized that foot speed could be that important in the game of golf.  Of course, if the OP finds ANY ball, he can require that the opponent come and identify it, and if the opponent refuses, the Committee could disqualify him (Dec 27/13).  This could give the OP enough time to look a little further.  Still, it sounds like a win-at-all costs kind of situation, something that I'd rather not be involved with.

[Pretzel]

10 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

That's a point that I hadn't considered, but I agree.  It really doesn't matter if it's match play or stroke play.  The moment that the provisional ball is played from a point at or nearer to the hole than where the original ball is thought to be, the original ball is lost.  The stroke may still be recalled in match play if made out of order, but the original ball is still deemed lost.  I can't see any way that a ball which is lost can become unlost.  

So back to the OP - run to your provisional ball and tap it in.  Even if your opponent recalls the stroke, that ball is still the ball in play.

Unless he found the ball first, in which the provisional is immediately no longer in play for you to hit from nearer the hole in the first place.