2016 Masters Toonamint Discussion Thread

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

So, over the shot he changed his mind and tried to fade it.

No it was a 'stock fade' from the beginning. A stock draw would have put him in  the back bunker by his and Greller's reckoning. The 'stock fade' was to take some distance off and hit the middle of the green between the bunkers or between there and the pin.

[saevel25]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jordan-spieths-collapse-also-required-a-great-comeback/

A cool article comparing the major resume of the guy who collapsed versus the guy who won. This tournament ranked as the 17th biggest upset since 1958. 

Willett's final round was the 8th best final round performance since 1958 by a winner. Willett's weekend performance is the 9th best since 1958. 

For all the media attention on Spieth, Willett put together a top 10 weekend performance to win the Masters. Maybe we should give more credit where it is rightfully due. 

[nevets88]

Where are ratings? Curious how many tuned in before Spieth's back 9 and after. 

Nevermind. 

http://awfulannouncing.com/2016/masters-final-round-ratings-down-slightly-from-last-year.html

[Gunther]

59 minutes ago, natureboy said:

No it was a 'stock fade' from the beginning. A stock draw would have put him in  the back bunker by his and Greller's reckoning. The 'stock fade' was to take some distance off and hit the middle of the green between the bunkers or between there and the pin.

Yes, guess I misinterpreted his comments before the shot and post-round.  I thought his stock shot was a draw.  And, I heard him talking about being concerned with flying the back bunker.  Thanks for the correction.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Natural Patrick said:

How did your prediction go with it being Fowlers time to win, and Spieth being a non factor?

Better than your non-existent prediction.

Nice try.

[pumaAttack]

Worst part about the Masters?  It's a two month gap until the US Open.

[colin007]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

 

Spieth's Thursday round was much better. He averaged 8 strokes better than the field on Thursday. Willett averaged 5.7 strokes better. Just to say how hard Thursday's conditions were. 

 

 It's eight strokes better than the entire field, including the guys that blew it up and the former champions who are putting up big numbers.

 Plus you are failing to take into account the pressure that comes with battling for the lead on a Sunday, versus the opening Thursday round where everybody starts at zero.

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, colin007 said:

 It's eight strokes better than the entire field, including the guys that blew it up and the former champions who are putting up big numbers.

More guys blew up as a percentage of the field on Saturday then they did on Friday or Thursday. 30% of the golfers on Saturday shot 78.5 or worse. While only 15% and 17% shot that score or worse on Thursday or Friday. You can't assume that just because people made the cut that the weekend will have dramatically better scoring. 

The only day that had better scoring was Sunday when the winds died down. The whole field played 2 strokes or less better on average than any other day. 

12 minutes ago, colin007 said:

 Plus you are failing to take into account the pressure that comes with battling for the lead on a Sunday, versus the opening Thursday round where everybody starts at zero.

Not really significant since people deal with pressure different. For someone who dive bombs like Kaufman you have a guy like Willett who seemed to excel. 

Spieth didn't crumble under the pressure. He crumbled under a swing issue that plagued him for the most part of this season. And, it came on the worst possible spot on the course. 

 

[Nosevi]

3 minutes ago, colin007 said:

 It's eight strokes better than the entire field, including the guys that blew it up and the former champions who are putting up big numbers.

 Plus you are failing to take into account the pressure that comes with battling for the lead on a Sunday, versus the opening Thursday round where everybody starts at zero.

It's a good point: 8 strokes better than the pre-cut field (including those that left their game at home this week) vs 5.7 strokes better than the post-cut field, I'm stuggling to see which is better. Tougher conditions on Thursday, more pressure on Sunday - I know which Spieth found trickier but not sure which round was more 'difficult'.

Here's a thought, many sites are saying what a shock win this was. DW was actually the number 1 ranked amateur in the world just before turning pro. Could it be that it just took him a few years to make the transition from amateur to pro? Justin Rose was the same. One of those 'time will tell' things but having followed DW since he was an amateur I'm not as surprised as some.

Random anecdote - one of my neighbours took Danny to Turkey a few years back to play as an amateur. Walked his son to school this morning with my kids. Many of us have followed DW for some time, this win is not the shock it is being portrayed as in some areas of the media.

Want a seriously wierd coincidence or two - that neighbour lives 9 houses from me. Mid way between us (well 4 houses from me, 5 from him) lives a guy who started the Faldo Series with Nick Faldo And ran it for some years (a series for top junior amateurs in the UK) obviously Nick Faldo being the only other Englishman to have won the Masters. This morning I had a good practice session with a pro called Jess Wilcox, she competed in the Faldo series back in 2009. I spoke to all 3 inside 20 minutes this morning. 

I simply could not make this stuff up :)

22 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

More guys blew up as a percentage of the field on Saturday then they did on Friday or Thursday. 30% of the golfers on Saturday shot 78.5 or worse. While only 15% and 17% shot that score or worse on Thursday or Friday. You can't assume that just because people made the cut that the weekend will have dramatically better scoring. 

The only day that had better scoring was Sunday when the winds died down. The whole field played 2 strokes or less better on average than any other day. 

Not really significant since people deal with pressure different. For someone who dive bombs like Kaufman you have a guy like Willett who seemed to excel. 

Could you argue that that is precisely what a Major is meant to find out - they're all great golfers but who can perform when the pressure is on?

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, Gunther said:

Yes, guess I misinterpreted his comments before the shot and post-round.  I thought his stock shot was a draw.  And, I heard him talking about being concerned with flying the back bunker.  Thanks for the correction.

I think his primary stock is a draw, because that is the shot he said he would have been most comfortable hitting, but he has a 'stock fade' too apparently.

[natureboy]

5 hours ago, Big Lex said:

I'm not saying he's weak, or that he chokes, or that he isn't a great golfer. I'm saying he's human. Golf is hard and the winner in a major is often the last man standing, not the one who made the charge.

Even more than baseball golf seems to a 'game of failure'. A great year on tour with 5 wins is typically .250 of starts. It's incredibly rare for any player other than Tiger to approach let alone exceed .500 (like batting .400?). Tiger and Jack both won ~ .170 of their Majors starts.

[b101]

6 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Even more than baseball golf seems to a 'game of failure'. 

And that's before you get to us lot...!

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, Nosevi said:

Here's a thought, many sites are saying what a shock win this was. DW was actually the number 1 ranked amateur in the world just before turning pro. Could it be that it just took him a few years to make the transition from amateur to pro? Justin Rose was the same.

That's a good point.

Quote

Could you argue that that is precisely what a Major is meant to find out - they're all great golfers but who can perform when the pressure is on?

When did Willett's pressure really start? Willett only played 3 holes knowing he had the lead, right? 'All' he was playing for initially was to 'give himself an outside chance or the bonus of an extra-nice payday. I expect he had a 'Shoot a score and it's out of my hands' kind of mindset.

In terms of a Brit golfer facing pressure, I have to give the nod to Faldo who was besieged by press expectations. Even with his recent form, wasn't Willet relatively under the radar in the U.K. compared to 'Foldo' (a very undeserved moniker)? Hopefully Willett can handle the real onslaught now that he's expected to 'deliver' Majors.

He did not face the accumulated fractional 'stress gained' (TM) of being conscious of building and holding a lead throughout the tournament. It's less psychologically draining so he had more reserves when he found himself in the pressure spot.

He's still a deserving champion, just saying. The 'chaser' role in golf is widely regarded among the commentators I've seen as having inherently less pressure. Otherwise the 'sleeping on the lead' phrase wouldn't be such a trope.

Edited April 12, 2016 by natureboy

[ppine]

Looked at another way, the Masters' field of golfers is the best there is.

Augusta is as hard of a golf course that exists. It keeps getting longer.

There is tremendous mental pressure leading up to the event and for four straight days.

It is like squeezing a watermelon seed, eventually it comes squirting out.

No one should be surprised that the best golfers in the world are going to make some mistakes.

 

[Golfingdad]

30 minutes ago, natureboy said:

The 'chaser' role in golf is widely regarded among the commentators I've seen as having inherently less pressure. Otherwise the 'sleeping on the lead' phrase wouldn't be such a trope.

I don't think I totally agree with that.  We're not watching him play (for the first 12 or so holes) so he's under our radar, but he knows how well he's playing and he knows that a misstep or two from Spieth and he's right in it, so I'm sure that he's feeling pressure.

OR, if he's not ... then I think he's just bottling it up and once he hears that buzz and sees he's in the lead, then it's that much greater.

An analogy to me would be how in match play they always say that you need to expect your opponent to drain that difficult putt or pitch.  That way you are mentally prepared for your putt.  If you relax and assume they'll miss, then you're not ready for the pressure once it's on you, and when you're not ready for it, it's too much.  So I think Willett was probably playing with the pressure the entire time, forcing himself to think/know that he was in it, otherwise that first shot after he realized he was in the lead might have been impossible. :)

[nevets88]

Photo album of AGNC from redditor:

http://imgur.com/a/vbO4p

[natureboy]

45 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I don't think I totally agree with that.  We're not watching him play (for the first 12 or so holes) so he's under our radar, but he knows how well he's playing and he knows that a misstep or two from Spieth and he's right in it, so I'm sure that he's feeling pressure.

OR, if he's not ... then I think he's just bottling it up and once he hears that buzz and sees he's in the lead, then it's that much greater.

An analogy to me would be how in match play they always say that you need to expect your opponent to drain that difficult putt or pitch.  That way you are mentally prepared for your putt.  If you relax and assume they'll miss, then you're not ready for the pressure once it's on you, and when you're not ready for it, it's too much.  So I think Willett was probably playing with the pressure the entire time, forcing himself to think/know that he was in it, otherwise that first shot after he realized he was in the lead might have been impossible. :)

I see your point, but don't totally agree. Holding the lead carries with it the potential to let it slip away which you can't let creep into your mind and that takes mental energy. Willett could focus more mental energy on his game, with less personal expectation of performance (it's a bonus) because as you say it depended on a slip from Jordan. At Augusta (any Major really) that's always possible, but it means the ultimate outcome is in part out of your control.

I am not trying to diminish Willett's accomplishment. He played great golf on a huge stage. He hit a great shot knowing he had the lead and then played two solid holes. I'm just saying that it's a bit more taxing mentally to hold and try to maintain the lead than to be in the chaser role.

My point was made largely to head off the inevitable @Nosevi narrative that the Brits are made for this sort of pressure...yadda...yadda . IMO Willett will more truly feel what Jordan felt the next time he holds a Major lead going into the final round.

Edited April 12, 2016 by natureboy

[Gunther]

5 hours ago, natureboy said:

 

My editor is messing up again.  

What I was trying to say is that I can barely conceptualize a "stock fade" with short irons, which is why I assumed draw when he and Mike discussed "stock 9" before the shot. Never could cut those little clubs.