Leave the Flagstick In (and Tend it Too)

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I still am ... at least in regards to whether the ball would fall into the hole more often with or without it.  I'm not convinced that Luitens shot wouldn't have fallen had the pin not been there.

Then do the math. It was going too fast to fall into the hole.

The ball was rolling pretty quickly. How far by do you think it would have gone had there not been a hole there at all? How about if it catches a bit of the back lip 1/4 of the way up the ball? It is gonna lip, jump, and still roll farther away than it finished.

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

And when I'm on the putting green I have putts occasionally that bounce off the pin similarly that I believe would have fallen in had the pin not been there.

Assuming the flagsticks weren't leaning toward you, more than likely, you're wrong. The space the flagstick occupies (and there's no rule that says a ball has to fit in the hole with the flagstick in it) more than makes up for the space and time lost to allow the golf ball to fall by deadening the ball enough. If you had a rubber flagstick, or a really wide flagstick, that equation could flip, but the space and thus time lost is almost always more than made up for by the flagstick's deadening properties.

The only other thing that could start to tip the balance back to even would be if the flagstick was grippy and the ball could roll "up" the flagstick a little bit, but most flagsticks that low are actually angled downward a bit, IIRC.

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

It's kind of hard to prove either way since I can't repeat the exact same putt both with and without the flagstick. ;)

The study has been done a few times. And I have a contraption or two that CAN roll the ball the same every time (the TrueRoller). Will you pay for my time if I film a video showing you how much leaving the flagstick in can help you? 

Do you dispute the Pelz studies?

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

But, either way, I still leave it in for all except the shortest (and flat or uphill) putts from the fringe.  Even if it's not increasing the make chances, it will (on those rare occasions I actually hit it) likely decrease the length of my next shot.  I had a pitch Friday that I hit much too hard and would have skated right over the top of the hole and finished 20 feet away were it not for the flagstick.  (It mattered not, because I missed the 8 footer it left me anyway, but hey ...)

I'm glad. Because it does increase your make percentages.

[dchoye]

Interesting thread.  I'm more prone to taking the pin out with the flatstick on the fringe and when chipping with lower lofted irons.  I find the pin bit distracting  My mind is zeroing on the cup 

When I use the LW around the green then I tend to leave the pin in as most times I'm flop/fly most of the way there and I like seeing the pin in 

obviously my choice is based on what's confident for me not on science 

Edited August 1, 2016 by dchoye

[No Mulligans]

On 3/14/2016 at 8:39 AM, iacas said:

If you're outside of 25 feet or so, consider having the flagstick tended when you putt.

People are shy to have the flagstick tended when they putt, but having a person stand there not only helps you aim (though you cannot ask them to stand somewhere in particular - if they happen to stand where you're aiming, it may be helpful to you), but it also helps you with your depth perception and thus helps you with your speed.

 

I suppose it's within the rules as the person tending the flag to purposely tend in a way that does help the one putting by giving them a possible aim point or in a way that doesn't help them by standing on the side that doesn't give them a possible aim point.  This would be true as long as the putter doesn't direct you to tend the flag in a specific way.

When playing with a partner and tending one could take advantage of that rule.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

I suppose it's within the rules as the person tending the flag to purposely tend in a way that does help the one putting by giving them a possible aim point or in a way that doesn't help them by standing on the side that doesn't give them a possible aim point.  This would be true as long as the putter doesn't direct you to tend the flag in a specific way.

When playing with a partner and tending one could take advantage of that rule.

Yep.

When I tend the flag for @NatalieB I'll stand on the high side of the hole if possible. If she happens to be able to aim at my left pinkie toe, so be it. But I don't tell her where to aim… she gets the read herself, and could (almost) as easily pick a spot on the green or a tree in the distance to aim at.

[Golfingdad]

1 minute ago, No Mulligans said:

I suppose it's within the rules as the person tending the flag to purposely tend in a way that does help the one putting by giving them a possible aim point or in a way that doesn't help them by standing on the side that doesn't give them a possible aim point.  This would be true as long as the putter doesn't direct you to tend the flag in a specific way.

When playing with a partner and tending one could take advantage of that rule.

Don't know where I heard it, but ... I always try and stand on the uphill side of the putt (obviously assuming I'm not in other players lines) because then I'm less likely to be standing in the line of their next putt.

Obviously, I'm also more likely to be giving them something to aim at too - oh well.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Don't know where I heard it, but ... I always try and stand on the uphill side of the putt (obviously assuming I'm not in other players lines) because then I'm less likely to be standing in the line of their next putt.

Obviously, I'm also more likely to be giving them something to aim at too - oh well.

Off the top of my head…

• Don't stand in people's lines.
• Don't stand so your shadow is over the hole or line.
• Stand on the uphill side of the cup.

[Golfingdad]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Off the top of my head…

• Don't stand in people's lines.
• Don't stand so your shadow is over the hole or line.
• Stand on the uphill side of the cup.

Oh yes - that one too. 

[billchao]

I feel like this is the kind of debate that's easily solved with a video. Anyone have a Perfect Putter we can use?

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, billchao said:

I feel like this is the kind of debate that's easily solved with a video. Anyone have a Perfect Putter we can use?

Yeah, but I know the answer, so it's tough to find the motivation.

[roamin]

I (tell myself I) believe it. It makes perfect sense to me; especially with the tapered flag-sticks at most courses I've played. Either way, I experienced a noticeable difference in lag putting the day after coming across this thread and was completely sold on the increased depth-perception bit. Somewhere in the thread someone mentions thinking of the flag-stick as backboard on a basketball goal. Bank-shots were my thing, so I really like this thought. 

I, too, however have had a few that just seemed like they should have fallen, but hit the flag and popped-out and left me wondering. I know the answer, though. I try to focus more on (and be happy about) the fact that I almost made the shot. 

I could tell you I want the video, but it wouldn't put it to rest completely. I'd still have the occasional shot that I thought was "different". So, I'd rather focus on new tips like "getting someone to tend the flag also helps with depth perception" and the dilemma this presents...

How do I convince my another player to "tend the flag-stick" but not pull the flag? I already get weird looks when I tell them not to tend it. Furthermore, if I do convince them, is it a penalty if the ball actually hits the flag-stick, since they were tending? (Joking, but serious. )

[billchao]

52 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah, but I know the answer, so it's tough to find the motivation.

Well to be fair, you "know the answer" in all the videos you make, otherwise you'd be asking questions, not making a video. If it reaches out to more people than just this discussion does, then it's considered a worthy endeavor, yes? 

[Golfingdad]

22 minutes ago, roamin said:

How do I convince my another player to "tend the flag-stick" but not pull the flag?

You don't, because ...

22 minutes ago, roamin said:

is it a penalty if the ball actually hits the flag-stick,

Yes. (2 strokes)

If you're off the green then you don't need anybody to tend it, you leave it in and there is no penalty if you hit it, obviously. 

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, billchao said:

Well to be fair, you "know the answer" in all the videos you make, otherwise you'd be asking questions, not making a video. If it reaches out to more people than just this discussion does, then it's considered a worthy endeavor, yes? 

Maybe… still going to be tough to find the time.

[roamin]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Yes. (2 strokes)

Gotcha. I'll just stick with leaving it in altogether and tell'm to stay away from the hole! 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Maybe… still going to be tough to find the time.

That's ok, I don't need to watch it anyway 

[boogielicious]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

As I've posted before, it happens more to better players.

I've posted about how I've kept track, and while I'll see more holes played than you do in 18 holes, I'll routinely see 10+ situations in watching my college kids play golf (with their fellow competitors) where the ball does or would hit the flagstick (if it was still in). It happens a lot more frequently for better players.

Since you leave it in for chips, you're immediately discounting those times, of course. So it happens a fair amount to you, too.

The general rule: only take the flagstick out if it's leaning in such a way that the ball won't fit. If you want to give me the "it gives me confidence to take it out" excuse, simply derive more confidence from the fact that leaving it in gives you a better chance.

P.S. That last part is directed at all, not specifically at Dave.

Two situations come to mind from this weekend. First, I chipped in from 40 feet.  It hit the stick and dropped. It wasn't going that fast though.

Second incident was in the Women's British Open. Mirim Lee was 30 yards off the green. She chipped and it was moving very fast. If it missed the flag stick, it would have gone off the green on the other side, up hill! It hit the stick and stopped 1" from the hole. Jutanugarn had a similar shot. She missed and ended up doubling the hole.

[saevel25]

 

Make sure to keep the flagstick in from 170 yards ;) 

 

[dennyjones]

On 3/14/2016 at 11:39 AM, iacas said:

People are shy to have the flagstick tended when they putt, but having a person stand there not only helps you aim (though you cannot ask them to stand somewhere in particular - if they happen to stand where you're aiming, it may be helpful to you), but it also helps you with your depth perception and thus helps you with your speed.

Am I to understand that you can't ask them to stand on the other side of the hole when tending the flag?