Should the act of "dropping" be eliminated in favor of always placing?

[bkuehn1952]

@Mike Boatright suggested the idea of eliminating dropping in favor of placing one's ball in the same area in which one would normally drop.  I think the idea has some merit.  For starters, one would never have to worry about whether to place the ball or drop it.  Also, where the Rules specify re-hitting from a point as near as possible as the previous shot, we would be much more likely to actually do that.  Plus, it would eliminate the times we stand on a hill, drop the ball and know it is going to bounce back into the hazard.

I doubt it would save much time.  It would make the Rules a bit more simple.  I would be okay with people getting a decent lie after taking relief, either free or with penalty.  I don't think anyone will miss taking an "unplayable" penalty, dropping the ball and having it roll back behind the same rock.

[DaveP043]

We're never guaranteed to have a good lie, even when we split a fairway.  There's no reason why you should be guaranteed a good lie when you need to take relief.  To me its that simple.

[newtogolf]

I don't think it will be a big time saver and depending on the location, placement could provide a golfer with a big advantage over dropping.  If you have to drop in thick rough or fescue , the dropped ball will likely fall deep into the the grass where as a placed ball could be left on top of the grass.  

[pganapathy]

As @DaveP043 says, lie is never guaranteed so why be guaranteed a good lie.  Additionally, if I am allowed to place a ball, does that mean I can first prepare the lie and then place it.  Say fluff up the grass for example.  Also, what happens if I place the ball and it then moves after that.  For me dropping is the best solution

[Mike Boatright]

Dropping the ball is almost always for relief in pga tournaments the players drops it twice on purpose then places his ball it's stupid. Hitting a great tee shot down the middle and find it lands in a divot full of sand is bad luck but is also been up for discussion for a free drop because hitting a fairway shouldn't penalize you. Assume your getting relief from a cart path then it should be relief not have it fall in a small gopher hole impression. The only time golf is play is at it lies is in the fairway and rough in play where you don't get relief only and in the summer no winter rules. Trust me guys the game is hard enough why do people insist on making it harder.

[pganapathy]

@Mike Boatright, the simple fact is you should play the ball as it lies.  Sometimes you might get mud on the ball and you can only clean it on the green.  Those are the breaks in life.  Some good and some bad.  Take it as it comes, don't try to knock off the bad breaks and take good breaks only.

[Rulesman]

4 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

 Trust me guys the game is hard enough why do people insist on making it harder.

It has always been that hard. No one is making it harder.

You want to make it easier. I suppose you would have the snakes removed from snakes and ladders.

[Mike Boatright]

3 minutes ago, pganapathy said:

@Mike Boatright, the simple fact is you should play the ball as it lies.  Sometimes you might get mud on the ball and you can only clean it on the green.  Those are the breaks in life.  Some good and some bad.  Take it as it comes, don't try to knock off the bad breaks and take good breaks only.

Were talking relief here in no way should a player get penalized for taking relief it's that simple case closed. The fairway divot thing is debatable and usually just a pga tour thing. If you've seen tournaments by day's end the fairway is covered in divots full of sand so essentially your hitting out of a hazard in the fairway. Nicklaus talked about this as a possible rule change getting to place the ball out of the sand filled divot i'm for it! As for as recreational golf goes it happens as well and should probably be a common local rule. The rest of the game has plenty of hazards and obstacles I'm not saying if you hit it behind a tree then move the ball i'm saying there needs to be standards within the rules that makes sense.

[newtogolf]

25 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Were talking relief here in no way should a player get penalized for taking relief it's that simple case closed. The fairway divot thing is debatable and usually just a pga tour thing. If you've seen tournaments by day's end the fairway is covered in divots full of sand so essentially your hitting out of a hazard in the fairway. Nicklaus talked about this as a possible rule change getting to place the ball out of the sand filled divot i'm for it! As for as recreational golf goes it happens as well and should probably be a common local rule. The rest of the game has plenty of hazards and obstacles I'm not saying if you hit it behind a tree then move the ball i'm saying there needs to be standards within the rules that makes sense.

Part of the game involves rewards for good shots (fairway divots aside) and penalty for bad shots.  If you hit your ball OB or on a cart path why would you be entitled to a perfect lie?  

[bkuehn1952]

Let's not get into the divot hole debate.

 

[Lilfrier]

I would be fine with it, but I also don't especially care if it didn't happen. I think the hill is the reason I'd support it, though--if the drop area is heavily sloped and forced the ball to roll back into (or very near) the hazard, it's kind of a waste of time to have that as the drop area. I generally don't care one way or the other though. As was already stated, good shots don't guarantee good lies, so bad ones shouldn't either.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Mike Boatright said:

 Assume your getting relief from a cart path then it should be relief not have it fall in a small gopher hole impression. 

If I've hit it off the fairway, and there WERE no cart path, I might be in that small impression and be required to play it.  Just because there happens to be a cart path there, I shouldn't be guaranteed a better lie than if there was no cart path.  Drop it, and take your chances!  That's not a penalty, its the same chances you took hitting the ball in that area in the first place.

By the way, you DO get free relief from gopher holes.

1 hour ago, Mike Boatright said:

 The only time golf is play is at it lies is in the fairway and rough in play where you don't get relief only and in the summer no winter rules. 

And Mike, would it be too much to ask for you to use a comma once or twice, and maybe spell-check too?  It can really help make the sentences easier to follow.

[bkuehn1952]

2 hours ago, pganapathy said:

... Additionally, if I am allowed to place a ball, does that mean I can first prepare the lie and then place it.  Say fluff up the grass for example.  

Under the current Rules, whether one is placing or dropping, one can not fluff up the grass or otherwise improve the lie.  Loose impediments or moveable obstructions can be removed prior to dropping or placing.  One can not replace divots in divot holes or groom the turf. No one is advocating allowing one to alter the potential lie.

[Patch]

Keep it just like it is. Placing is already available when dropping won't work. 

[Fourputt]

By dropping, the player more closely simulates the randomness of the way that the ball comes to rest after a stroke.  This is better in keeping with the principle of playing the ball as it lies, doing as little as possible to change that lie (meaning that the player is only allowed to improve his situation by removing loose impediments or movable obstructions).  

Placing the ball is only allowed under the rules when a specific spot is known, except when the preferred lies local rule is in effect, and that should only be used in extreme circumstances, and only in the fairway.

Additional to @Mike Boatright, most of the time, even on Tour, the drop stands.  While I acknowledge that they seem to find a lot of places where they can fudge it to get to place the ball, even on Tour it's not the normal course of events.  The production crew is more likely to show the drop and place because it's better TV.  

Showing any drop on TV is pretty rare anyway.  I see a whole lot more shots hit the water during some tournaments than I ever see the ensuing drop to take relief, and most of the time they only show what's happening to the leaders anyway.  You never see the guy in 50th place do anything unless it's a quick cut to show the tape of him holing out from the fairway.  They sure don't show him taking relief.

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

Part of the game involves rewards for good shots (fairway divots aside) and penalty for bad shots.  If you hit your ball OB or on a cart path why would you be entitled to a perfect lie? 

Consider this:  A close match comes to the finishing hole tied and Player A hooks his tee shot OB.  He gets to re-tee (perfect lie), and plays that ball to a par for a double-bogey finish.  Player B hits two perfect shots and then a decent third that is about to land on the fringe 10 feet from the hole but it hits a sprinkler head, bounds over the green, and OB.  Now he has to drop near his previous shot and cross his fingers and hope that it doesn't bound into a divot hole.  If we were judging who's more entitled to a better lie there, I don't think anybody would choose Player A, so it's not really about entitlement.

In your cart path example, though, I kind of agree.  I could see people gaming the system with being allowed FREE placements.  Part of what goes into deciding to take a cart path (or similar) drop is the lie vs. the possible upcoming lie.

While admittedly not being a rules expert or an expert on the principles either, I think I would advocate for replacing penalty drops with places, but requiring that free drops remain drops.  You're taking a gamble on a better lie, you shouldn't be guaranteed one.  With the penalty drops, there is no such gamble.  You're forced to drop after having already been punished.  (So I voted "other")

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

Dropping the ball is almost always for relief in pga tournaments the players drops it twice on purpose then places his ball it's stupid.

Most drops on the PGA Tour occur one time.

And, it's not like a player gets to place it wherever he wants after two drops; if he drops it on a bad spot the second time, and gets to place, he has to place it where it first contacted the course.

4 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

Hitting a great tee shot down the middle and find it lands in a divot full of sand is bad luck but is also been up for discussion for a free drop because hitting a fairway shouldn't penalize you.

 for this thread, and has been discussed ad nauseam.

4 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

Assume your getting relief from a cart path then it should be relief not have it fall in a small gopher hole impression.

Please learn the Rules of Golf before posting in Rules of Golf forums, or at least ask about the things you do not know. You get free relief if your ball is in a gopher hole.

4 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

The only time golf is play is at it lies is in the fairway and rough in play where you don't get relief only and in the summer no winter rules.

That sentence doesn't make sense to me. I don't even know what you're trying to say there. Please use better grammar, punctuation, etc.

I've gotten relief in both the fairway and the rough. I've played it as it lies on every surface out there (except OB, of course, and ESAs and GUR which do not allow play).

3 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

Were talking relief here in no way should a player get penalized for taking relief it's that simple case closed.

Hardly.

You're not guaranteed to get a good or a bad lie anywhere. Golf has an element of randomness. So does life.

3 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

The fairway divot thing is debatable and usually just a pga tour thing. If you've seen tournaments by day's end the fairway is covered in divots full of sand so essentially your hitting out of a hazard in the fairway. Nicklaus talked about this as a possible rule change getting to place the ball out of the sand filled divot i'm for it! As for as recreational golf goes it happens as well and should probably be a common local rule. The rest of the game has plenty of hazards and obstacles I'm not saying if you hit it behind a tree then move the ball i'm saying there needs to be standards within the rules that makes sense.

 

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BTW, I could at least start to entertain the idea of allowing placement in all situations as a way of simplifying the Rules of Golf. We'd lose the randomness, but maybe someone could convince me that it's a worthwhile tradeoff for the simplification we'd see.

But I still lean toward "keep it as it is" right now, for reasons already stated.

[rkim291968]

I voted no.  Placing the ball will more likely to improve the lie which isn't all that fair for the situation.