Does mental game affect your swing?

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Lihu said:

I'm just starting to be able to understand what you mean, but I definitely still need to do a lot of mechanical check points even on the course. The feel thing really messed me up quite a few times especially over time, but that's probably just my lack of experience. However, I don't envision ever "out growing" this set of mechanical checks? Maybe it just won't look as awkward when I get better at it?

I realize you're a "different" type of person, @Lihu, but in no way do we tell people to have "a lot of mechanical check points on the course."

FWIW.

[Mike Boatright]

11 hours ago, Lihu said:

There were a couple threads where I found myself at odds with other posters, and this topic below would be off topic.

So, please explain why you think mental game affects your swing, and describe a specific situation where it does.

Mental game doesn't affect my full swing, primarily because I use 5SK. As crappy as my swing is, I can fix specific mechanical parts like a mechanic fixing a car using 5SK as a guide. I watch video, note the faults and fix the glaring one(s) at the range or wherever "5 minutes a day". I attempt to apply them on the course. It's very much a mechanical process. Hence, not dependent upon my mood or mental game.

Here's what I am thinking looking down an "intimidating" shot. "As I stand over a hilltop looking down on a narrow landing with over 200 yards of bush and natural vegetation between me and the narrow landing. I make my practice swing. Did I finish correctly? Did I get my centered turn? Did my weight shift enough? Is my lead wrist palmered? Is my follow through indicating enough hip turn? No? Do it again. Setup the shot. Ball positioned correctly for the club in hand? Shift. Shift. Shift until everything is in place. Do a little takeaway, then let down, address the ball. Make swing." Basically, this is what I do on every swing, and takes like 10-12 seconds.

Is there anywhere in that entire sequence that I am affected by mental game? Not really. I'm so busy self checking that I got the 5 simple keys to the best of my ability, I don't have time to think about how I'm going to mishit.

Even though I would self rate my on course swing at 1.8 keys which is not that good a swing, my swing is very much mechanical. Any failure, is a mechanics failure, not a mental one.

What I think is a reasonable swing is one that is greater than roughly 1.5 keys. That's enough to get around the course and enjoy your game. If it is built mechanically, you should be scoring much better than bogey on average.

So, if you are still not convinced that a swing should not be dependent upon mental game, please explain the specifics.

No offense but you sound like a mess! Of course we all have our glitches because our brain is like a computer and it happens and is the direct cause of terrible shots. The best thing to think about before a golf shot is: A dove,boobies,the pine tree your aiming at,smooth takeaway let's go,clear the mechanism,one time,etc... You swing keys your working on are for the range and probably nor full committed shots you want them to develop muscle memory so in real time on the course they react to a faster committed swing.

 

For me on real intimidating shots say trouble left I sometimes say don't go left before I hit the ball and hit a terrible block right or toe hook left. The golf swing is a subconscious reaction and the more you can get that right the more often you will make your perfect swing.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I realize you're a "different" type of person, @Lihu, but in no way do we tell people to have "a lot of mechanical check points on the course."

FWIW.

True, that's just me.

Only one person got pissed off because the sequence took more than 20 seconds, and I am working to reduce the time once it becomes more ingrained. That's the hope anyway. . .

 

2 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

No offense but you sound like a mess! Of course we all have our glitches because our brain is like a computer and it happens and is the direct cause of terrible shots. The best thing to think about before a golf shot is: A dove,boobies,the pine tree your aiming at,smooth takeaway let's go,clear the mechanism,one time,etc... You swing keys your working on are for the range and probably nor full committed shots you want them to develop muscle memory so in real time on the course they react to a faster committed swing.

Yup, what are the odds of hitting the same pine tree every round?

I like the idea regarding thinking about boobies, but most of the people I golf with are men. That's pretty much a thought that's as far from my mind as I want

 

2 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

For me on real intimidating shots say trouble left I sometimes say don't go left before I hit the ball and hit a terrible block right or toe hook left. The golf swing is a subconscious reaction and the more you can get that right the more often you will make your perfect swing.

Sure, makes sense.

[Buckeyebowman]

I have to say Lihu, that I agree strongly with iacas and Mike Boatwright. When you are on the course you are playing "golf" not "golf swing". The object is to score, and to score you have to send your ball toward the target as accurately as possible. You seem to be a lot like a friend of mine. He'd step up to a shot and look at all the places he did NOT want to end up, instead of looking at the target. Then he'd start thinking all kinds of mechanical thoughts. You could actually stand back and see it!

Another way to say it is that he was "getting in his own way", as you appear to be doing. Mechanics are find on the range. But the range and the course are two different experiences! When you are on the course, the only thing you can do is play the game you have to the best of your ability.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Buckeyebowman

[Lihu]

8 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I have to say Lihu, that I agree strongly with iacas and Mike Boatwright. When you are on the course you are playing "golf" not "golf swing". The object is to score, and to score you have to send your ball toward the target as accurately as possible. You seem to be a lot like a friend of mine. He'd step up to a shot and look at all the places he did NOT want to end up, instead of looking at the target. Then he'd start thinking all kinds of mechanical thoughts. You could actually stand back and see it!

Another way to say it is that he was "getting in his own way", as you appear to be doing. Mechanics are find on the range. But the range and the course are two different experiences! When you are on the course, the only thing you can do is play the game you have to the best of your ability.

I don't really get in my own way per se. I do the mechanical checks after aiming myself. Then I swing and hope for the best.

The way I am currently swinging is the way I learned to shoot a bow using BEST method. You do all the checks, if something is wrong let down and start over. BEST stands for Biomechanically efficient shooting technique.

[Mike Boatright]

31 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I don't really get in my own way per se. I do the mechanical checks after aiming myself. Then I swing and hope for the best.

The way I am currently swinging is the way I learned to shoot a bow using BEST method. You do all the checks, if something is wrong let down and start over. BEST stands for Biomechanically efficient shooting technique.

Mechanical checks are fine as long as they are a feel thing. I make sure im not standing to close to the ball then check my shoulder alignment by looking left to see where they are aimed. I sorta double check ball position and if it's off I simply strep away and start over. This is a real quick deal but it's essential to have a mental; trigger such as telling yourself to commit or stay smooth whatever works it's a trigger then go.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, Mike Boatright said:

Mechanical checks are fine as long as they are a feel thing. I make sure im not standing to close to the ball then check my shoulder alignment by looking left to see where they are aimed. I sorta double check ball position and if it's off I simply strep away and start over. This is a real quick deal but it's essential to have a mental; trigger such as telling yourself to commit or stay smooth whatever works it's a trigger then go.

Yeah, that's pretty much it, but I do a lot more steps.

It's not like I break out a camera and film my swing or look at my reflection in a full length mirror attached to the cart or something like that.

[DrvFrShow]

You're hitting the ball well. You've got your swing in order. Your main swing thought all day has been "weight forward". There's a water hazard on the right. You get "weight forward." But your final thought is "what ever you do don't hit it in the water." Where does the ball go? Right in the water.

As soon as that thought enters your mind on the tee box it's time to step away and grab the 4 iron. So you sacrifice those 40 yds. At least it won't reach the water hazard. 

[onthehunt526]

On 3/24/2016 at 8:46 AM, Lihu said:

There were a couple threads where I found myself at odds with other posters, and this topic below would be off topic.

So, please explain why you think mental game affects your swing, and describe a specific situation where it does.

Mental game doesn't affect my full swing, primarily because I use 5SK. As crappy as my swing is, I can fix specific mechanical parts like a mechanic fixing a car using 5SK as a guide. I watch video, note the faults and fix the glaring one(s) at the range or wherever "5 minutes a day". I attempt to apply them on the course. It's very much a mechanical process. Hence, not dependent upon my mood or mental game.

Here's what I am thinking looking down an "intimidating" shot. "As I stand over a hilltop looking down on a narrow landing with over 200 yards of bush and natural vegetation between me and the narrow landing. I make my practice swing. Did I finish correctly? Did I get my centered turn? Did my weight shift enough? Is my lead wrist palmered? Is my follow through indicating enough hip turn? No? Do it again. Setup the shot. Ball positioned correctly for the club in hand? Shift. Shift. Shift until everything is in place. Do a little takeaway, then let down, address the ball. Make swing." Basically, this is what I do on every swing, and takes like 10-12 seconds.

Is there anywhere in that entire sequence that I am affected by mental game? Not really. I'm so busy self checking that I got the 5 simple keys to the best of my ability, I don't have time to think about how I'm going to mishit.

Even though I would self rate my on course swing at 1.8 keys which is not that good a swing, my swing is very much mechanical. Any failure, is a mechanics failure, not a mental one.

What I think is a reasonable swing is one that is greater than roughly 1.5 keys. That's enough to get around the course and enjoy your game. If it is built mechanically, you should be scoring much better than bogey on average.

So, if you are still not convinced that a swing should not be dependent upon mental game, please explain the specifics.

I'm at around 2.25 keys. I've got 1 and 2 down. Working on 3, before I go to 4 and 5.

@Lihu I honestly think if you make a bad swing, it's mechanical, If you make a bad decision, it's mental. And I'll leave it at that.

[Patch]

Mental or physical, to play decent golf, based on your own ability, you need focus, and self confidence. You need to control your emotions after every bad, and/or good shot. You need to be able to read, and understand what is in front of you. To me all of these are part of one's mental capabilities. Mental aspects of the game. It's these mental capabilities that helps the golfer physically make the swing they need to send the ball some where near their aim point.

[Lihu]

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I'm at around 2.25 keys. I've got 1 and 2 down. Working on 3, before I go to 4 and 5.

@Lihu I honestly think if you make a bad swing, it's mechanical, If you make a bad decision, it's mental. And I'll leave it at that.

Good way of putting it.

On the range I think I'm around the same skill level as you in long game, but on the course with bad lies I think I average 1.8. When I find myself 1 foot above or below on a slope that angles off in random directions my swing is really terrible.

[9wood]

I was watching Jason Day at Bay Hill and how he plans his shot and then closes his eyes to try to visualize the shot he intends to make before actually making his swing. As for me, I know that I have to stay focused during my swing. Before I pull the trigger or swing I go through a drill in which I think over or remind myself what I must do in order to produce a decent shot. 

[Fourputt]

9 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I'm at around 2.25 keys. I've got 1 and 2 down. Working on 3, before I go to 4 and 5.

@Lihu I honestly think if you make a bad swing, it's mechanical, If you make a bad decision, it's mental. And I'll leave it at that.

But it's your brain that controls the muscles.  There is no such thing as muscle memory, it's all brain.  Therefore when you make a mechanical mistake because your mind is not focused on the swing, it's a mental issue, not physical.  You know how to do it right, but your mental fuzziness or lack of concentration is the direct cause of the mechanical fault.  For that reason, you simply cannot separate them into different boxes.  The relationship is inseparable.

[JonMA1]

I think that both sides of this argument are correct.

• Yes, I suck because my swing is bad.
• Yes, when frustrated or in a poor frame of mind, not concentrating, etc., I play even worse.
• The really good rounds are an anomaly and not the norm. Less to do with my thought process than something in my swing that is closer to correct, but...
• An inability to recognize and repeat that correct motion is more of a mental deficiency than a physical one.

I am a terrible putter. But the biggest improvement comes when I simply pick a line, walk up and, with little hesitation or thought, make my putting stroke. In this way, too much analysis seems to be counter-productive. So even if my putting mechanics are horrid, the thought process involved is even more damaging.

[Abu3baid]

30 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

But it's your brain that controls the muscles.  There is no such thing as muscle memory, it's all brain.  Therefore when you make a mechanical mistake because your mind is not focused on the swing, it's a mental issue, not physical.  You know how to do it right, but your mental fuzziness or lack of concentration is the direct cause of the mechanical fault.  For that reason, you simply cannot separate them into different boxes.  The relationship is inseparable.

I'm not buying it, and I have argued against this with my friend before and will continue to do so.

If you focused 100% on each shot you still aren't going to shoot significantly better than you currently do..  Are there days that you get hot and shoot well? I'm sure there are, just like there are days you just don't have the timing well and shot bad.  But it isn't because you concentrated in one round and didn't in the other.

IMO concentration on shots is the easiest excuse players have come up with to explain why they suck.  I'm glad I am able to admit that I suck because of bad mechanics and not because I didn't concentrate.

 

[Ernest Jones]

On March 25, 2016 at 8:30 PM, Mike Boatright said:

No offense but you sound like a mess! Of course we all have our glitches because our brain is like a computer and it happens and is the direct cause of terrible shots. The best thing to think about before a golf shot is: A dove,boobies,the pine tree your aiming at,smooth takeaway let's go,clear the mechanism,one time,etc... You swing keys your working on are for the range and probably nor full committed shots you want them to develop muscle memory so in real time on the course they react to a faster committed swing.

 

For me on real intimidating shots say trouble left I sometimes say don't go left before I hit the ball and hit a terrible block right or toe hook left. The golf swing is a subconscious reaction and the more you can get that right the more often you will make your perfect swing.

Good call on the boobies. Not sure it makes me play better, but it sure keeps me in a good mood and that definitely makes me play better!

[Fourputt]

35 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I'm not buying it, and I have argued against this with my friend before and will continue to do so.

If you focused 100% on each shot you still aren't going to shoot significantly better than you currently do..  Are there days that you get hot and shoot well? I'm sure there are, just like there are days you just don't have the timing well and shot bad.  But it isn't because you concentrated in one round and didn't in the other.

IMO concentration on shots is the easiest excuse players have come up with to explain why they suck.  I'm glad I am able to admit that I suck because of bad mechanics and not because I didn't concentrate.

 

Your muscles have no capacity for memory.  When you learn a skill, you are training your brain to control those muscles in a certain way.  The way you  train, combined with any innate talent, determines how well your muscles take the commands from the brain.  That said, no matter how well trained you are, issues outside of the game can cause you to dwell on things not conducive to swinging a golf club, and they will interfere with the clear transmission of the commands from the brain to the muscles.

I don't deny that there is also a mechanical aspect involved.  Just sleeping wrong can put a hitch in a necessary muscle group and cause a mechanical fault.  It feels right, but because of that little hitch, the result is off.  But that doesn't detract from my feeling that most such issues start in the brain, not in the muscles.  And particularly when a round is inconsistent, one swing good, the next one not so much, I see it as more of a focus or concentration issue that is causing the mechanical fault or faults.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

Your muscles have no capacity for memory.  When you learn a skill, you are training your brain to control those muscles in a certain way.  The way you  train, combined with any innate talent, determines how well your muscles take the commands from the brain.  That said, no matter how well trained you are, issues outside of the game can cause you to dwell on things not conducive to swinging a golf club, and they will interfere with the clear transmission of the commands from the brain to the muscles.

I don't deny that there is also a mechanical aspect involved.  Just sleeping wrong can put a hitch in a necessary muscle group and cause a mechanical fault.  It feels right, but because of that little hitch, the result is off.  But that doesn't detract from my feeling that most such issues start in the brain, not in the muscles.  And particularly when a round is inconsistent, one swing good, the next one not so much, I see it as more of a focus or concentration issue that is causing the mechanical fault or faults.

Exactly. When you learn a skill, things become somewhat automatic. The process of ingraining skills make them somewhat automatic. You don't need to think about what muscles you are using to make a swing, you just do it. Unfortunately, for most of us, we ingrain bad swings. . .