Obama - Winner or Loser

[Ernest Jones]

To all you guys that seem to think Obama is a disaster.

Can you explain to me why? As a Canadian and outsider looking in, I don't understand. Unemployment is down, the deficit is down, you have healthcare now, the stock market is up, gas prices are down, etc, etc......all with a congress that is apparently sworn to cock-block him at every turn regardless of the validity of any particular proposal.

Outside of the US, many are proclaiming him to be one of greatest US Presidents ever. I don't know enough to understand how those two points of view can co-exist. Can one of you show me where Obama has proven to be such a monumental a failure? Really curious, because all I've really heard to shore up the "Obama is a disaster" narrative has been redneck stupidity. I'm open to hearing from one of the "smart" Obama detractors.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Can you explain to me why? As a Canadian and outsider looking in, I don't understand. Unemployment is down, the deficit is down, you have healthcare now, the stock market is up, gas prices are down, etc, etc......all with a congress that is apparently sworn to cock-block him at every turn regardless of the validity of any particular proposal.

Point of note: I had healthcare before Obama. Now I pay more for it.

Obama, from my wife's perspective, has done little to nothing to support teachers, and that's usually one of the big reasons teachers vote Democrat.

[Ernest Jones]

EDIT* I thought about adding a poll, but then realized that that would just be troll bait. All the red necks would vote that Obama Sux and then run away without providing any substance.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Ernest Jones said:

EDIT* I thought about adding a poll, but then realized that that would just be troll bait. All the red necks would vote that Obama Sux and then run away without providing any substance.

I'll add one. And make voter names public.

[Lugowskins]

7 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

To all you guys that seem to think Obama is a disaster.

Can you explain to me why? As a Canadian and outsider looking in, I don't understand. Unemployment is down, the deficit is down, you have healthcare now, the stock market is up, gas prices are down, etc, etc......all with a congress that is apparently sworn to cock-block him at every turn regardless of the validity of any particular proposal.

Outside of the US, many are proclaiming him to be one of greatest US Presidents ever. I don't know enough to understand how those two points of view can co-exist. Can one of you show me where Obama has proven to be such a monumental a failure? Really curious, because all I've really heard to shore up the "Obama is a disaster" narrative has been redneck stupidity. I'm open to hearing from one of the "smart" Obama detractors.

 

Ummm he's black, is engaged in sports other than golf and baseball, presumably doesn't drink Busch light, forced everone to have health care, everyone thinks he's going to take our guns but its been 8 years and I'm still waiting, he doesn't like Nascar, I mean goddammit this is 'Murica if my president wont drink cheap beer and watch JR win at Daytona with me then what the hell are we doing here

[Ernest Jones]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Point of note: I had healthcare before Obama. Now I pay more for it.

Obama, from my wife's perspective, has done little to nothing to support teachers, and that's usually one of the big reasons teachers vote Democrat.

Ah, substance, nice! 

I'm surprised, I thought that would be the type of thing that would be right in his wheelhouse. I wonder if it's a question of prioritization or if it just wasn't on his radar. 

[boogielicious]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Point of note: I had healthcare before Obama. Now I pay more for it.

Obama, from my wife's perspective, has done little to nothing to support teachers, and that's usually one of the big reasons teachers vote Democrat.

FWIW, I've paid more for my healthcare every year since I started working in 1982. It went up the most in 2006 - 2008 for me, incrementally. 

If fear this thread will go south quickly. 

[baller7345]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Point of note: I had healthcare before Obama. Now I pay more for it.

Obama, from my wife's perspective, has done little to nothing to support teachers, and that's usually one of the big reasons teachers vote Democrat.

On the other side of things, several of the guys I work with have gotten health insurance from healthcare.gov over what they had before and now pay less while getting better coverage.

Me personally, being the invincible 26 year old I am , hasn't bothered to switch off of my cheap and largely useless plan provided by my employer.  I really should look into that.

[Ernest Jones]

As of this post, 3 people have voted "NO", but not one of them has offered any reasons why. That is what I'm looking for, the other side of the coin. I have heard lots of reasons why Obama is a bad president, but as I stated in my OP, I haven't heard any reasons that pass muster. 

So @saevel25, @Gunther and @David in FL, enlighten me.

Is it the economy? Unemployment? Foreign policy? Failure to improve education system? What is your reasoning?

You've chosen to vote in a thread that is specifically asking for your reasoning, but are ducking the opportunity to provide it? Why?

[Gunther]

10 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

As of this post, 3 people have voted "NO", but not one of them has offered any reasons why. That is what I'm looking for, the other side of the coin. I have heard lots of reasons why Obama is a bad president, but as I stated in my OP, I haven't heard any reasons that pass muster. 

So @saevel25, @Gunther and @David in FL, enlighten me.

Is it the economy? Unemployment? Foreign policy? Failure to improve education system? What is your reasoning?

You've chosen to vote in a thread that is specifically asking for your reasoning, but are ducking the opportunity to provide it? Why?

EJ, you do not want to be enlightened.  You are a leftist, socialist, union member from Canada who has a very superficial understanding of American politics.  You are a troll who enjoys jumping on people here, mostly for their opposing viewpoints to yours.

 This thread was created to further your fetish so I won't take part other than the obvious vote that Obama has been a very bad POTUS, and this note.

Enjoy.

[Ernest Jones]

11 minutes ago, Gunther said:

EJ, you do not want to be enlightened.  You are a leftist, socialist, union member from Canada who has a very superficial understanding of American politics.  You are a troll who enjoys jumping on people here, mostly for their opposing viewpoints to yours.

 This thread was created to further your fetish so I won't take part other than the obvious vote that Obama has been a very bad POTUS, and this note.

Enjoy.

?

Really, that's all ya got? 

I thought it was a valid question from someone who truly does not understand why some think Obama was/is so terrible. 

I am hopeful someone can provide some better insight into the opposing viewpoint than the above.

[boogielicious]

22 minutes ago, Gunther said:

EJ, you do not want to be enlightened.  You are a leftist, socialist, union member from Canada who has a very superficial understanding of American politics.  You are a troll who enjoys jumping on people here, mostly for their opposing viewpoints to yours.

 This thread was created to further your fetish so I won't take part other than the obvious vote that Obama has been a very bad POTUS, and this note.

Enjoy.

He's asking for your objective opinion and not to be insulted. You have been given the opportunity to outline your issues and all you can come up with is insults?  Sad.

Being that you cannot explain why you think he has been bad, I guess there is no substance to your argument.

[Patch]

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

To all you guys that seem to think Obama is a disaster.

Can you explain to me why? As a Canadian and outsider looking in, I don't understand. Unemployment is down, the deficit is down, you have healthcare now, the stock market is up, gas prices are down, etc, etc......all with a congress that is apparently sworn to cock-block him at every turn regardless of the validity of any particular proposal.

Outside of the US, many are proclaiming him to be one of greatest US Presidents ever. I don't know enough to understand how those two points of view can co-exist. Can one of you show me where Obama has proven to be such a monumental a failure? Really curious, because all I've really heard to shore up the "Obama is a disaster" narrative has been redneck stupidity. I'm open to hearing from one of the "smart" Obama detractors.

Well, where I live gas prices are rising again. They went up $0.40 a gallon in just the past week. 

The ACA (obamacare) is showing signs of failing with quite a few CO-OPs going out of business. A few of the larger insurance companies are struggling to make ends meet, and want a change. 

I have relatives in the military, who don't care for him, because he has given orders that won't let them do their jobs. 

I deal quite a bit in the stock market, and it's not strong as they want you to think it is. My investment guru has my stuff in a holding pattern. He thinks were could have another recession with in a year or two. He's been right by me for over 40 years, so I listen to him.

As for unemployment being down, you maybe right as long as those who come up with those positive numbers are including folks who are no longer eligible for unemployment insurance, or have left the job market and not reported as looking for work. Those unemployment numbers have a history of making a sitting potus look good regardless. 

As for foreign countries liking him, that is not a surprise. 

As for red neck stupidity, and my thinkinking he could have done a much better job for America than what he has done, then so be it. Opinions vary.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

Unemployment is down

This is one of those stats that presidents like to claim ownership of when it's hard to actually tell if they had significant influence. Also, it's congress that passes laws that influence the economy more. It never really made sense for the president to ever claim responsibility for this number.

Unless you actually look at every aspect of the economy and isolate out which sectors improved and what were the cause and effect it could be easily said that the economy just adapted and started to rebound on it's own.

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

the deficit is down

http://useconomy.about.com/od/usfederalbudget/fl/US-Deficit-by-Year.htm

It doesn't look like an overly drastic drop. Compared to the Bush years, the first term of Obama had a Debt to GDP of triple that per year of Bush. With the Republican Congress nothing significant has been passed in his 2nd term as you can see by the consistent Debt to GDP ratio.  I don't remember any significant long term spending bill passed in the last 4-5 years.

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

the stock market is up, gas prices are down, etc, etc

Again nothing really the President controls. I believe the saying is, I think it's true. There has never been a time in the stock market where if a person lost money they didn't make it back with in 10 years if you didn't take your money out of the market.

Gas Prices, that has everything to do with the Saudi's lowering gas prices to make oil fracking in the US less profitable. They do not want us to tap that oil supply under the US. So they flooded the market with their supply and drove prices down. Obama did nothing there.

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

all with a congress that is apparently sworn to cock-block him at every turn regardless of the validity of any particular proposal.

Which means he's done very little if you understand how US government works. For any significant regulation, tax code change or spending bill it all must start in Congress. So if nothing get's passed then the US Economy is running on cruise control at it's current set up. All of the past 4-5 years has been all the US Economy naturally recovering.

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

Outside of the US, many are proclaiming him to be one of greatest US Presidents ever.

Do those outside the US even know enough about US politics or our society to make that judgment call?

It will be hard to say he's the worst. I wouldn't say he's great.

 

10 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Is it the economy? Unemployment? Foreign policy? Failure to improve education system? What is your reasoning?

He probably could have done better on the economy. Our tax code and regulations are antiquated for the modern global economy. He never really attempted to tackle those issues. Even with the housing market crash the government did nothing to fix the way banks do loans.

Education wasn't looked at. I think the education system in the US needs a big kick to the 21st century. We could do so much more to actually improve our education system with the resources we have.

I have mixed reviews on the health care system. Someone just made a good point to me. Mostly I hated how it was passed. I think a lot more could have been done to curb other issues with the health care system. In the end, just force feeding a bill through for the sake of passing a bill does not sit well with me. As Nancy Pelosi put it, "You have to pass it to see what's in it." .

I would have rather seen reform to make medical degrees more affordable. We will be having a doctor shortage here in the near future. The way hospitals and doctors are being sued for every little thing is driving up cost. people are flying overseas to get surgeries because airfare + surgery is less than that in the US you have a pricing issue. He did nothing to solve the pricing issue.

Nothing in Obama's health care bill curbs this type of pricing. e basically just attempted to solve an accessibility issue over some bigger issues with our health care. 

What bothered me is he gave this big great speech about how American shouldn't be democrats or republicans but American. He was setting himself up to be this great leader who will bridge the gap and then he just ends up being more liberal than he lead on to believe. He never lived up to the hype he projected for himself.

If I had to grade his presidency it would be a C-.

 

 

 

[Ernest Jones]

32 minutes ago, Patch said:

Well, where I live gas prices are rising again. They went up $0.40 a gallon in just the past week. 

The ACA (obamacare) is showing signs of failing with quite a few CO-OPs going out of business. A few of the larger insurance companies are struggling to make ends meet, and want a change. 

I have relatives in the military, who don't care for him, because he has given orders that won't let them do their jobs. 

I deal quite a bit in the stock market, and it's not strong as they want you to think it is. My investment guru has my stuff in a holding pattern. He thinks were could have another recession with in a year or two. He's been right by me for over 40 years, so I listen to him.

As for unemployment being down, you maybe right as long as those who come up with those positive numbers are including folks who are no longer eligible for unemployment insurance, or have left the job market and not reported as looking for work. Those unemployment numbers have a history of making a sitting potus look good regardless. 

As for foreign countries liking him, that is not a surprise. 

As for red neck stupidity, and my thinkinking he could have done a much better job for America than what he has done, then so be it. Opinions vary.

I don't see redneck stupidity in your post. You never claimed he was coming to steal your guns or that he is a Muslim sleeper agent with a hidden agenda!

Despite what @Gunther may "think", I'm not looking to vilify the other side of the debate, I'm just interested to actually hear what the other side of the debate is. Far too often I hear, "Obama has been a disaster 'nuff said..." Just take a look at post #10 to see what I mean...

30 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

This is one of those stats that presidents like to claim ownership of when it's hard to actually tell if they had significant influence. Also, it's congress that passes laws that influence the economy more. It never really made sense for the president to ever claim responsibility for this number.

Unless you actually look at every aspect of the economy and isolate out which sectors improved and what were the cause and effect it could be easily said that the economy just adapted and started to rebound on it's own.

http://useconomy.about.com/od/usfederalbudget/fl/US-Deficit-by-Year.htm

It doesn't look like an overly drastic drop. Compared to the Bush years, the first term of Obama had a Debt to GDP of triple that per year of Bush. With the Republican Congress nothing significant has been passed in his 2nd term as you can see by the consistent Debt to GDP ratio.  I don't remember any significant long term spending bill passed in the last 4-5 years.

Again nothing really the President controls. I believe the saying is, I think it's true. There has never been a time in the stock market where if a person lost money they didn't make it back with in 10 years if you didn't take your money out of the market.

Gas Prices, that has everything to do with the Saudi's lowering gas prices to make oil fracking in the US less profitable. They do not want us to tap that oil supply under the US. So they flooded the market with their supply and drove prices down. Obama did nothing there.

Which means he's done very little if you understand how US government works. For any significant regulation, tax code change or spending bill it all must start in Congress. So if nothing get's passed then the US Economy is running on cruise control at it's current set up. All of the past 4-5 years has been all the US Economy naturally recovering.

Do those outside the US even know enough about US politics or our society to make that judgment call?

It will be hard to say he's the worst. I wouldn't say he's great.

 

He probably could have done better on the economy. Our tax code and regulations are antiquated for the modern global economy. He never really attempted to tackle those issues. Even with the housing market crash the government did nothing to fix the way banks do loans.

Education wasn't looked at. I think the education system in the US needs a big kick to the 21st century. We could do so much more to actually improve our education system with the resources we have.

I have mixed reviews on the health care system. Someone just made a good point to me. Mostly I hated how it was passed. I think a lot more could have been done to curb other issues with the health care system. In the end, just force feeding a bill through for the sake of passing a bill does not sit well with me. As Nancy Pelosi put it, "You have to pass it to see what's in it." .

I would have rather seen reform to make medical degrees more affordable. We will be having a doctor shortage here in the near future. The way hospitals and doctors are being sued for every little thing is driving up cost. people are flying overseas to get surgeries because airfare + surgery is less than that in the US you have a pricing issue. He did nothing to solve the pricing issue.

Nothing in Obama's health care bill curbs this type of pricing. e basically just attempted to solve an accessibility issue over some bigger issues with our health care. 

What bothered me is he gave this big great speech about how American shouldn't be democrats or republicans but American. He was setting himself up to be this great leader who will bridge the gap and then he just ends up being more liberal than he lead on to believe. He never lived up to the hype he projected for himself.

If I had to grade his presidency it would be a C-.

 

 

 

From the outside looking in, it seems like Obama gets none of the credit for anything good that has happened during his term and all of the blame for anything bad that happens during his time in office.

What about these numbers? Are they not accurate? It seems like he inherited a pile of shit from the GOP and has slowly turned the tides. But I found this on the internet so maybe it's not at all accurate.

Anyway, I don't have a dog in this fight, I just think Obama is pretty fly and don't really get the hatred (not saying that about you specifically @saevel25).

The stats I see being put forth all seem to indicate that he has done a great job as POTUS, particularly when you factor in the mess that he had to start with. By contrast, the stats that support the "Obama was bad" narrative are all anecdotal, non-existent or ridiculous. Which is why I created this thread, I want to hear some points from people that aren't stupid rednecks and I don't consider you (or @David in FL, @newtogolf, @patches) to be stupid or a redneck.  

 

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

From the outside looking in, it seems like Obama gets none of the credit for anything good that has happened during his term and all of the blame for anything bad that happens during his time in office.

I've always believe the President should get very little because he actually doesn't have that influence people think he does. If Congress doesn't like to play nice you get a lame duck session, which he's mostly having the past 4 years.

4 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

What about these numbers? Are they not accurate? It seems like he inherited a pile of shit from the GOP and has slowly turned the tides. But I found this on the internet so maybe it's not at all accurate.

It's hard to say cause and effect. There was a lot going on for a long time. The housing market was totally unforeseen by those who needed to keep watch over it. In some regards I think Bush gets a bad rap for that when it's been heading that way from probably the late 90's. It goes back to where I think the President gets too much credit for the good and bad.

[Elmer]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

leftist, socialist, union member

You say that like it is a bad thing.
Without socialism we would not have:

The Military/Defense, Department of Health and Human Service,Customs and Border Protection ,Department of Justice, National Weather Service, The White House, Government, Highways/Roads,Public Libraries,Police, Fire Dept, Postal Service, Student Loans and Grants, Bridges, CIA & FBI
War (because private companies don’t attack other Countries)
And Americans like WAR!!!!!

 

[Jeremie Boop]

Many of the reasons were already mentioned. But I'll toss in a few things. I've seen some adverse effects at work due to the ACA, people had their hours cut because we could not afford to add insurance coverage to people who were part time but worked over 29.5 hours but less than 40. My friend was dropped from his wife's insurance, his employer did not have insurance because they didn't have to due to their business size. The ACA package that he was offered cost too much per month and had a $5000 deductible. All this happened during a health scare, his doctor thought he might have cancer. So, because of ACA they had to use up all their savings which lead to more stress in an already bad situation. Just some things I've seen, personally, that taint my overall view of this Presidency. I don't think he's been a horrible President really, I just don't think he did anything to be considered a good one.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Jeremie Boop