Ball blown off green

[Dormie1360]

2 hours ago, Martyn W said:

If wind was an OA, players may never finish a hole. Under 19-1b:

If a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and replayed.

I must assume that wind would be 'animate' i.e.moving, so if the wind blew a putt offline, the stroke must be cancelled.

Just so everyone is clear, because it is confusing, under R19-1b the term "animate" outside agency means having life in the animal kingdom, it does not have to be moving.  So an animate outside agency could be a dog, a golfer, bird, etc. 

So if any moving agency deflects a putt, the stroke must be canceled and replayed.  If the agency is not moving, it has to be "animate" for the stroke to be cancelled and replayed.

If the agency is moving, it doesn't matter if its' animate or not, your cancel and replay.

So.....if a stroke made on the green strikes a bird sitting still, the stroke must be cancelled and replayed.  The bird is an animate agency.

If a stroke on the green strikes a leaf sitting still you play the ball as it lie.  If the leaf was moving you cancel and replay.

[jgreen85]

17 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I think you are confusing a ball falling in when on the lip and being blow in by the wind. It doesn't have to be windy for the ball to fall in the hole when on the lip of the cup. Look at Tiger's chip at the masters years ago. It was because it still had some slight momentum and it was on the high side of the hole. It was not windy that day. 

The two situations, wind effecting the ball and a ball being on the lip of the cup are two entirely different situations. 

How does one know if the ball rolled in due to being on the lip vs being blown by the wind? In other words, ball is on the lip, but it wouldn't have fallen in if not for being blown by the wind.

17 hours ago, saevel25 said:

The rules are the rules for the game. You just can't discard the ones you consider unfair to you. 

I'm not discarding anything. I'm debating the merits of a particular rule (opinion). "The rules are" two groups opinions for how the game should be played. Rules (opinions) change all of the time and usually through debate.

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

How does one know if the ball rolled in due to being on the lip vs being blown by the wind? In other words, ball is on the lip, but it wouldn't have fallen in if not for being blown by the wind.

I'm not discarding anything. I'm debating the merits of a particular rule (opinion). "The rules are" two groups opinions for how the game should be played. Rules (opinions) change all of the time and usually through debate.

Rules aren't opinions.

You can have opinions about the Rules, but that doesn't mean the Rules themselves are opinions.

What's your question: why a ball on the lip can't blow into the hole? It's just a time savings thing. The number of times the wind will blow a ball into the hole are incredibly few in number. So while I get the point of your question, in practicality, it's simply not something to worry about. It doesn't happen. Balls do sit on the lip, though, and a player is encouraged not to wait around for three hours for the ball to fall in because wind is in the forecast.

[Abu3baid]

1 hour ago, jgreen85 said:

How does one know if the ball rolled in due to being on the lip vs being blown by the wind? In other words, ball is on the lip, but it wouldn't have fallen in if not for being blown by the wind.

I'm not discarding anything. I'm debating the merits of a particular rule (opinion). "The rules are" two groups opinions for how the game should be played. Rules (opinions) change all of the time and usually through debate.

I have to agree here.  What's the definition of on the lip anyway?  When it is 1 roll away?  1/2 roll away?  1/4 roll away? 1 cm away?  Sounds like an arbitrary thing to decide yeah it's on the lip.  

This is exacty the same as defining what is a divot?  1/2 grown? 3/4 grown?  When a divot stops being a divot? 

I understand that they want to deter people from standing over the ball for ever for it to fall, but that's exactly what it is an exception to the wind rule when the ball is on the lip (however it is defined)

[DaveP043]

In my experience, the wind can only cause a ball to start rolling if the ball is already on at least a moderate sloping are of the green.  Generally, the hole is not located on moderate to steep slopes, per the recommendations (not rules) of the USGA and R&A.  Therefore, its VERY rare that wind will blow a ball sitting on the lip into the hole.  I know there are exceptions, both in the placement of the hole, and extremely strong winds making a ball move on more level parts of a green, but they ARE rare.  Nevertheless, you only have 10 seconds once you arrive at a ball sitting on the lip.  As for defining "the lip", I'd say its a bit like porn, hard to define specifically, but I know it when I see it.

[Dormie1360]

Look straight down at the hole from above.  If any part of the ball is past the edge of the hole, it is overhanging.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Dormie1360

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

In my experience, the wind can only cause a ball to start rolling if the ball is already on at least a moderate sloping are of the green.  Generally, the hole is not located on moderate to steep slopes, per the recommendations (not rules) of the USGA and R&A.  Therefore, its VERY rare that wind will blow a ball sitting on the lip into the hole.  I know there are exceptions, both in the placement of the hole, and extremely strong winds making a ball move on more level parts of a green, but they ARE rare.  Nevertheless, you only have 10 seconds once you arrive at a ball sitting on the lip.  As for defining "the lip", I'd say its a bit like porn, hard to define specifically, but I know it when I see it.

Right. One of the things that make it so unlikely to happen.

5 minutes ago, Dormie1360 said:

Look straight down at the hole from above.  If any part of the ball is past the edge of the hole, it is overhanging.

Right on. The words aren't "on the lip" but "overhanging."

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I have to agree here.  What's the definition of on the lip anyway?  

The edge of the cup such that the ball would look precariously in a position to fall in.

3 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Sounds like an arbitrary thing to decide yeah it's on the lip.  

It could be. Depends. If the cup is on a 3% slope then the ball can be a greater distance away and have a better shot of falling in then compared to a flat green. 

If the ball looks to be on the lip you can walk up to the ball, wait 10 seconds then the ball is to be considered at rest. If the ball then falls in, outside of being pushed by the wind, you are considered to have hold out on the previous shot and add a penalty. It would be basically if you tapped it in. 

You need a really good wind, and the greens to be fast enough. St. Andrews ran at a STIMP of 10 in 2016 and they needed sustained winds in the 30's with gusts in the 40's to blow the ball around on the greens. 

Augusta was running at higher STIMP, they required sustained winds in the 20's, with gust in the 30's, with a ball near a false front (high green slope) for that ball to roll in the water. Just to tell you how extreme the situation was for Horschel on 16. 

I've played golf in some pretty good winds and never had the ball be pushed away.

It's really a non-issue. 

 

[Rulesman]

37 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 

If the ball looks to be on the lip you can walk up to the ball, wait 10 seconds then the ball is to be considered at rest.

 

The rule requires the ball to be  overhanging the lip of the hole,

See the diagram from Dormie1360

Edited April 14, 2016 by Rulesman

[Buckeyebowman]

OK, we seem to have gotten off track on this thread. Now we have people talking about a ball in motion striking worms, bugs, birds, or "animate" or "inanimate" outside agencies, or whether a putt was blown into the hole by the wind, and how long it should take, and whether Miss Moses could become Grandma Moses waiting for her putt to drop!

My point was that Billy Horschel "placed" his ball upon the green, with his ball mark still behind it. With his ball stationary upon the green, he proceeded to read his putt. The wind, which was howling that day, along with the treacherous conditions of the green, caused his ball to begin rolling down a slope, which culminated in his ball ending up in a hazard.

Now, I can understand wind not being considered an outside agency, considering the game is played outdoors and the Scottish mindset embodied in the old saying "Nae wind, Nae golf!" In other words, "If there's no wind, it's not golf!" But how about the Masters Committee being considered an outside agency, in that they let the greens get away from them?

I've heard many American pros complain about how slow Open Championship greens are compared to the PGA tour.  But the R&A knows the conditions they might encounter, and they don't really want balls blowing off greens, so they do something about it! Are we so stupid that we can't do the same here?

My point was about the unfairness of the rules. Horschel took no action that caused his misfortune, yet he was found guilty! "Making a Murder" anyone?!

As far as I'm concerned, a ball should not be considered "in play" upon the green until the ball mark has been removed. Horschel should have been allowed to replace his ball where he had it marked before the wind moved it!

I haven't had the opportunity to peruse iacas' thread about the R&A and the USGA reviewing the entire book of golf rules. Here's to them coming up with something more fair and commonsense that what exists now!

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

As far as I'm concerned, a ball should not be considered "in play" upon the green until the ball mark has been removed. Horschel should have been allowed to replace his ball where he had it marked before the wind moved it!

Heck, until this happened I assumed this was the case.  It seems logical.  Once the mark is down, you're able to pick it up and move it around so it makes sense that the ball should be considered out of play as soon as the coin hits the ground.

What happens if you are reaching for your ball after you place the coin and it juststarts to roll and you pick it up?

[Martyn W]

4 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

What happens if you are reaching for your ball after you place the coin and it juststarts to roll and you pick it up?

It depends if the movement of the ball was directly attributable to the specific act of marking it. 

20-1 ... If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball. Otherwise,the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under this Rule or Rule 18-2.

See also D20-1/15

Q.What is meant by the phrase "directly attributable to the specific act" in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a?

A.In Rule 20-1 the phrase means the specific act of placing a ball-marker behind the ball, placing a club to the side of the ball, or lifting the ball such that the player's hand, the placement of the ball-marker or the club, or the lifting of the ball causes the ball or the ball-marker to move.

In Rule 20-3a the phrase means the specific act of placing or replacing a ball in front of a ball-marker, placing a club to the side of a ball-marker or lifting the ball-marker such that the player's hand, the placement of the ball or club, or the lifting of the ball-marker causes the ball or the ball-markerto move.

Under either Rule, any accidental movement of the ball or the ball-marker which occurs before or after this specific act, such as dropping the ball or ball-marker, regardless of the height from which it was dropped, is not considered to be "directly attributable" and would result in the player incurring a penalty stroke.

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

But how about the Masters Committee being considered an outside agency, in that they let the greens get away from them?

The greens didn't get away from them. He was on a very steeply sloped part of the green.

10 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I've heard many American pros complain about how slow Open Championship greens are compared to the PGA tour.  But the R&A knows the conditions they might encounter, and they don't really want balls blowing off greens, so they do something about it! Are we so stupid that we can't do the same here?

ONE ball blew, and on a VERY sloped part of the green. The wind was nowhere near what it was like at the British Open.

10 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

My point was about the unfairness of the rules. Horschel took no action that caused his misfortune, yet he was found guilty! "Making a Murder" anyone?!

You can't regulate against luck. As others said, if his ball had rolled toward the hole, he'd have gotten "good" luck.

10 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

As far as I'm concerned, a ball should not be considered "in play" upon the green until the ball mark has been removed.

Why? He could have put his ball down behind his coin if he wanted. Or not just left his ball sitting on the green with that slope there.

10 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I haven't had the opportunity to peruse iacas' thread about the R&A and the USGA reviewing the entire book of golf rules. Here's to them coming up with something more fair and commonsense that what exists now!

I think that the first thing you're going to have to accept if you want to discuss the Rules of Golf is that they do not really concern themselves whatsoever with what is "fair." They do concern themselves with equity, but that just means treating like situations alike. Would it have been fair if his ball rolled via a gust of wind into the hole?

A ball is in play when you replace it.

[Fourputt]

On 4/11/2016 at 9:59 AM, Golfingdad said:

Ha.  Absolutely.  I checked the Rules and I checked the Decisions.  Thought I was being diligent, yet didn't consider checking the Definitions.

Lesson learned.

This is why the Definitions section is at the front of the rule book.  You can't really apply the rules properly without a good understanding of the terminology.

On 4/13/2016 at 5:07 PM, saevel25 said:

Correct, wind is an outside agency. 

 

Even though I'm late to the party, I can't let this stand for later readers.  This is incorrect, as stated earlier in the thread.  "Neither wind nor water is an outside agency". (this is also from the Definitions)

[Golfingdad]

55 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

This is why the Definitions section is at the front of the rule book.  You can't really apply the rules properly without a good understanding of the terminology.

Noted. :)  

I guess if I was looking at a physical book this would be more clear, but I've only been researching online, where obviously, you can click directly to the rules page without having to flip past the definitions.