Staying below the hole - Brilliant or Bogus?

[natureboy]

I've heard a lot of PGA event commentators (and players) frequently reference the value of leaving an approach below the hole. The rationale seems to be to have a straighter uphill putt that is a bit easier to control on bead and speed on the generally fast greens they face.

Distance of the first putt seems statistically to be more important than slope in the expected score for both amateurs and pros. Chips and pitches have higher expected scores than putting from the same distance for both pros and amateurs. Is the frequency of the 'below the hole' observation / comment in tour broadcasts and interviews a reflection of just how many unusually tough greens / pin placements pros face or is it misguided old-school wisdom like 'putt for dough'? Is it brilliant or bogus commentary?

Edited May 16, 2016 by natureboy

[Golfingdad]

Other.

I don't think it's either extreme (brilliant or bogus) but sometimes its probably accurate and sometimes its old-school wisdom.

[Grinde6]

I did "Brilliant 2".  The uphill putt is easier for a pro or anyone to read and make than downhill putts.  I thing this is the case if the distance is apples to apples though too.  If a pro can leave it 5 feet below or 5 feet above, I can almost guarantee they would rather have it below the hole. Obviously a 30 foot uphill versus a 5-10 foot downhill they would probably rather have the downhill putt.

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

The uphill putt is easier for a pro or anyone to read and make than downhill putts.

Gonna disagree on this one.  Uphill putts are easier to leave close to the hole and, therefore, not three putt as often, but there is no real reason why they'd be easier to read, and they definitely aren't easier to make, IMO.

Consider this:  If you have a same length straight uphill versus straight downhill putt, and your goal is to hit it hard enough to go the same distance past the hole if you miss (whether that is 9" or 18"), then the uphill putt is going to be passing the hole at a higher rate of speed than the downhill putt.  Based on that alone, you have a smaller effective hole size (due to "capture speed") which means your chances of making it are, if anything, less.

[Grinde6]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Gonna disagree on this one.  Uphill putts are easier to leave close to the hole and, therefore, not three putt as often, but there is no real reason why they'd be easier to read, and they definitely aren't easier to make, IMO.

Consider this:  If you have a same length straight uphill versus straight downhill putt, and your goal is to hit it hard enough to go the same distance past the hole if you miss (whether that is 9" or 18"), then the uphill putt is going to be passing the hole at a higher rate of speed than the downhill putt.  Based on that alone, you have a smaller effective hole size (due to "capture speed") which means your chances of making it are, if anything, less.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this then...I, as well as many pros if you have ever heard them talking about where to leave their shots, would rather have an uphill putt where I can be a little more aggressive than a downhill putt that I have to be cautious with or else risk 3 putting.

[billchao]

11 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Consider this:  If you have a same length straight uphill versus straight downhill putt, and your goal is to hit it hard enough to go the same distance past the hole if you miss (whether that is 9" or 18"), then the uphill putt is going to be passing the hole at a higher rate of speed than the downhill putt.  Based on that alone, you have a smaller effective hole size (due to "capture speed") which means your chances of making it are, if anything, less.

I thought with capture speed you're not looking to hit the ball a specific distance beyond the hole but rather a certain speed at the hole? Meaning your leave with a downhill putt should be longer than your leave with an uphill putt if you miss because you're trying to achieve X mph at the hole?

The same effect is true for stimp, is it not? The correct capture speed on stimp 8 will leave a shorter miss distance than on stimp 12?

28 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

The uphill putt is easier for a pro or anyone to read and make than downhill putts.

I don't think it's that it is easier to read uphill putts, but rather as you mentioned later, that it allows players to be more aggressive. Hitting the putt harder will allow them to take some of the break out, relying less on green reading and more on being able to hit a specific line.

[Golfingdad]

11 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this then...I, as well as many pros if you have ever heard them talking about where to leave their shots, would rather have an uphill putt where I can be a little more aggressive than a downhill putt that I have to be cautious with or else risk 3 putting.

That's not disagreeing.  I said that myself.

16 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Uphill putts are easier to leave close to the hole and, therefore, not three putt as often,

But you also said that uphill putts are easier to read and easier to make.  That's where I disagree with you.

[Golfingdad]

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

I thought with capture speed you're not looking to hit the ball a specific distance beyond the hole but rather a certain speed at the hole? Meaning your leave with a downhill putt should be longer than your leave with an uphill putt if you miss because you're trying to achieve X mph at the hole?

The same effect is true for stimp, is it not? The correct capture speed on stimp 8 will leave a shorter miss distance than on stimp 12?

I don't think it's that it is easier to read uphill putts, but rather as you mentioned later, that it allows players to be more aggressive. Hitting the putt harder will allow them to take some of the break out, relying less on green reading and more on being able to hit a specific line.

I couldn't remember so I had to look it up. ;)  Here's Erik's thread:

And here's the relevant paragraph from the OP:

Quote

(These numbers are for a flat green at about 8 on the stimp. On faster greens, these holes are a little larger because a ball can be rolling more slowly and still roll six inches past the hole, or two feet past the hole. On downhill putts, the hole can be a little larger too for the same reason - the ball is rolling more slowly - but this is often offset by the fact that the far edge of the cup is a little lower, so the ball has to fall more than 0.84 inches. On an uphill putt, a similar thing occurs - the ball will be traveling faster to roll out three feet past the hole (or whatever distance), but the back of the cup is a little higher so the ball only has to fall perhaps 0.8 inches.)

 

[DrvFrShow]

From the perspective of a lousy putter, unless the slope is extreme, which I'm assuming we're not, and we're assuming a green that's in top shape, I'll say I'd rather putt a 9' downhill slightly breaking putt to the left or right, than an identical uphill putt on the same green due to the fact that I have a hell of a time judging the additional break near the hole of the uphill putt. I've had better luck with the downhill putts where they roll slowly next to the hole and fall in.

Again, this assumes the greens aren't extremely sloped. The greens were running around 11.

[saevel25]

30 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this then...I, as well as many pros if you have ever heard them talking about where to leave their shots, would rather have an uphill putt where I can be a little more aggressive than a downhill putt that I have to be cautious with or else risk 3 putting.

Just because PGA Tour players do it, doesn't mean it is right. A lot of PGA Tour player's heads are filled with crap information because they've been fed these incorrect anecdotes all their lives. 

40 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Consider this:  If you have a same length straight uphill versus straight downhill putt, and your goal is to hit it hard enough to go the same distance past the hole if you miss (whether that is 9" or 18"), then the uphill putt is going to be passing the hole at a higher rate of speed than the downhill putt.  Based on that alone, you have a smaller effective hole size (due to "capture speed") which means your chances of making it are, if anything, less.

Yep. I think PGA tour players hit a lot of their putts too hard as well. I can just picture Phil having that 4 footer coming back for par ;) 

[No Mulligans]

All other things equal, I'd much rather have an uphill putt.  That is just from experience.  But if I had to analyze it:

- The downhill putt will have more break as the ball will be traveling slower thus making it harder to read.

- On the downhill putt with the ball traveling slower, any imperfections on the green will have a bigger affect on the ball staying on line.

- An error in getting the speed just right will have a greater distance error on a downhill putt (Like a faster stimp, you hit the ball more lightly and it is easier to get a higher % error in the speed.  Put another way, a .05 mph swing speed error on the downhill putt is a bigger distance error than that same .05 mph swing speed error on the uphill putt.)

- On some hole placements on some greens it is impossible to stop a ball near the hole on a downhill putt which could leave you 15 feet or more for your next putt.  This should never be the case on an uphill putt.

It is harder to score well on downhill putts.

[saevel25]

4 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

All other things equal, I'd much rather have an uphill putt.  That is just from experience.  But if I had to analyze it:

- The downhill putt will have more break as the ball will be traveling slower thus making it harder to read.

Not really. It's just most people are not good at reading greens. Most underread putts. 

8 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

- On the downhill putt with the ball traveling slower, any imperfections on the green will have a bigger affect on the ball staying on line.

The ball can still hit imperfections going uphill as well. If the greens are fast then there will be less imperfections. So in that regard, most of the time you will encounter imperfections on slower greens which makes downhill putts less daunting anyways. 

10 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

- An error in getting the speed just right will have a greater distance error on a downhill putt (Like a faster stimp, you hit the ball more lightly and it is easier to get a higher % error in the speed.  Put another way, a .05 mph swing speed error on the downhill putt is a bigger distance error than that same .05 mph swing speed error on the uphill putt.)

I don't get this. If you play enough break, such that speed leaves you 1/2 a foot below the hole, then hitting it slightly harder will leave you maybe 1 foot below the hole. Hitting it slightly easier will leave you at the hole. I don't see the issue. Learn how to control the distance on your putts. It's not that hard. 

10 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

- On some hole placements on some greens it is impossible to stop a ball near the hole on a downhill putt which could leave you 15 feet or more for your next putt.  This should never be the case on an uphill putt.

That is an outlier case and really isn't significant.

[Golfingdad]

19 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I don't get this. If you play enough break, such that speed leaves you 1/2 a foot below the hole, then hitting it slightly harder will leave you maybe 1 foot below the hole. Hitting it slightly easier will leave you at the hole. I don't see the issue. Learn how to control the distance on your putts. It's not that hard. 

I agree with everything else you said, but how do you not get this part?  The variation in the distance the ball travels on a downhill putt will be greater relative to the distance dispersion on an uphill putt given the same delta in your stroke speed (or whatever you want to call it).

So unless you magically become a more precise putter every time that you face a downhill putt and a worse putter every time you face an uphill putt, then it will be harder to stop the ball as close to the hole on average on the downhillers than the uphillers.

Brings me back to my original statement - all else equal, uphill putts are easier to two putt than downhill putts, but like you said ... they're definitely not easier to read or make.

[No Mulligans]

43 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Not really. It's just most people are not good at reading greens. Most underread putts. 

The ball can still hit imperfections going uphill as well. If the greens are fast then there will be less imperfections. So in that regard, most of the time you will encounter imperfections on slower greens which makes downhill putts less daunting anyways. 

I don't get this. If you play enough break, such that speed leaves you 1/2 a foot below the hole, then hitting it slightly harder will leave you maybe 1 foot below the hole. Hitting it slightly easier will leave you at the hole. I don't see the issue. Learn how to control the distance on your putts. It's not that hard. 

That is an outlier case and really isn't significant.

1. Do you agree that putts will be moving slower on downhill putts.  If you don't agree there is no point in discussing this, we'll just disagree.  If you do agree, there is more time for gravity to affect the ball and therefore there is more break (that is straight from aimpoint instructions).  Whether people are good at reading greens or not (I use aimpoint), that's not relevant.  It is still harder to make a good read, and get the speed right, as the amount of break increases.

2. You didn't say anything to contradict what I said.  So, I guess we agree that as the ball is traveling slower, imperfections will have a greater impact.  I even saw that happen at TPC Sawgrass on Saturday, super fast greens!

3. Okay, as @Golfingdad said.

4. I played Torrey Pines North a couple times a month over the last 3 months.  About 1/4th of the holes had this situation.  In addition, @golfingdad, didn't you have a tournament post a while back where you ran into this situation frequently on a round (as best as I can remember).  Not an outlier to me.

[Dan42nepa]

There are 2 holes on my course that you need to be below the hole. If not you have a breaking fast putt that if barely touched can roll 5-6 feet past. I would rather be short in two on a par 4 to chip below the hole rather than hit the green and be above the hole. I think sometimes its fill and maybe its just luck on their part.Maybe its skill.

[SavvySwede]

 

Just now, No Mulligans said:

1. Do you agree that putts will be moving slower on downhill putts.  If you don't agree there is no point in discussing this, we'll just disagree.  If you do agree, there is more time for gravity to affect the ball and therefore there is more break (except for straight putts).  Whether people are good at reading greens or not (I use aimpoint), that's not relevant.  It is still harder to make a good read, and get the speed right, as the amount of break increases.

2. You didn't say anything to contradict what I said.  So, I guess we agree that as the ball is traveling slower, imperfections will have a greater impact.  I even saw that happen at TPC Sawgrass on Saturday, super fast greens!

3. Okay, as @Golfingdad said.

4. I played Torrey Pines North a couple times a month over the last 3 months.  About 1/4th of the holes had this situation.  In addition, @golfingdad, didn't you have a tournament post a while back where you ran into this situation frequently on a round (as best as I can remember).  Not an outlier to me.

Putts will actually roll truer downhill. Hit a bump on an uphill putt and the ball striking into it and is deflected significantly, hit a bump of equal size on a downhill putt and the ball is landing on top of the bump and isn't deflected as much.

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

In addition, @golfingdad, didn't you have a tournament post a while back where you ran into this situation frequently on a round (as best as I can remember).

My situation was extreme.

59 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

On some hole placements on some greens it is impossible to stop a ball near the hole on a downhill putt which could leave you 15 feet or more for your next putt.  This should never be the case on an uphill putt.

It was Pelican Hill in December and I'd say it was an outlier experience. It was beyond unfair - the greens were so fast that it was even impossible to stop the ball next to the hole on uphill putts on the bad holes.  It was poor judgment on the part of the greenskeeper that day, for those 2-3 holes.

But, in general, I would stipulate to your point.  There are always going to be certain greens on most courses (depending on hole placement) where it is beneficial to be below the hole.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Other.

I don't think it's either extreme (brilliant or bogus) but sometimes its probably accurate and sometimes its old-school wisdom.

That's how I voted.

On super steep slopes it matters. On 95% of the greens players face, it doesn't matter much.

Johnny Miller is among the many who would prefer, for a "must make" putt, to have a downhill putt. You know it'll get to the hole, and you just have to get the line right.

Plus, downhill putts tend to get pulled straighter, while uphill putts get pushed offline (consider a straight downhill versus a straight uphill putt and pushing or pulling the putt slightly).

Distance from the hole matters a heck of a lot more - again, without a super steep slope - than whether the putt is uphill or downhill.

P.S. Distance control is tougher on steep downhill putts, @saevel25.