Bad Golf Parents

[DrvFrShow]

6 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

This is probably the worst thing I've ever seen on the course. 

My buddy and I are getting ready to tee off. My buddy is teed up and getting ready to hit when this middle aged guy comes running up and tells us his daughter is going to hit a few drives before we tee off.  Doesn't ask - tells us. 

We say - ok sure. Whatever, right?  So this 12-14 year old girl meekly walks onto the tee. Tees it up and slices it. The dad yells "what the f are you doing?  You're coming over the top. Hit another one". She does and tops it. He looks totally disgusted as she tees up one more and pretty much whiffs it. He gruffly says "that's it - lets go" and stomps off. She is practically in tears. 

I felt so bad for this girl I felt like saying something to this idiot but I knew it would not go well. He looked like he'd probably punch me if I did. 

Whats the worst example of golf parenting you've had the displeasure of witnessing? 

That was not "intense parenting." That was child abuse.

My father did that to me with the piano. I could have been a concert artist. He played in the local symphony. My dad had me practically in tears when I was practicing. The more he yelled, the more mistakes I'd make. It happened every weekend. I couldn't handle the mental abuse. I quit at 14. My dad hated athletics. So I went there. My mother signed the permission slip.

Abusive parents can ruin a child.

Coaches can go over the top, too. I know of one in the NBA who was known for it. He never had a successful team - Joe Carlisimo. Usually hired with a lot of praise and then fired mid-season. You remember him. Latrell Sprewell choked him and was promptly traded to NY. Then the coach was fired a month later..

[Golfingdad]

16 minutes ago, amoline said:

Fair point @Golfingdad. As natureboy said in the above posts, I wouldn't have felt it perhaps quite as unusual if it were a coach going off at a team as a whole. I know coaches can get intense, and the questionability of yelling at a team aside, I think especially how golf works as a sport, so mental and confidence driven, it's quite strange to see a single player taken down like that. I'm certainly not trying to "one up" any of the other posts about intense parents. Just wanted to share the most recent situation I'd seen on the course that it reminded me of

Thank you for the points, @natureboy! I agree, sometime I'll point it out. We often point out things like that in each others' swings, too. Even if it's not so much instruction as another eye to say "Hey, just so you know you're a little across the line if you don't mean to be" -- or whatever. Thanks for the post. I agree entirely with what you said especially coaching re: golf. I feel at the very bare minimum it is a coach's job to never demoralize his or her players. As I pursue a teaching degree myself, I know there is a big difference between giving students a verbal lashing that is a kick in the pants to get going, and flat out telling them you suck, basically. 

 

Don't get me wrong, it's still awful.  Just probably a lot less likely to leave lasting scars.  The other thing that is heart wrenching when you see the parents yelling at the kids in public like the examples above is when you imagine what they must be like in private. 

[natureboy]

29 minutes ago, amoline said:

Thank you for the points, @natureboy! I agree, sometime I'll point it out. We often point out things like that in each others' swings, too. Even if it's not so much instruction as another eye to say "Hey, just so you know you're a little across the line if you don't mean to be" -- or whatever.

OT, but:

Spoiler

I'd be more careful about 'fixing' across the line than a spine tilt toward the target issue. If you're swinging up with driver, which is more important, the target line or the baseline? Fred Couples played top level golf across the line at the top even with irons. With a sand wedge sure it's likely way more swing than you need (or want) for the task.

 

 

16 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Context / video link?

Edited July 9, 2016 by natureboy

[JonMA1]

26 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

That was not "intense parenting." That was child abuse.

I'm usually pretty reluctant to use phrases like "abuse" but I have to agree to some extent. Intense parenting is coming down hard on a child when they've done something that can endanger their lives or someone else's. Sports and music are simply not that important in life.

As parents, we have to realize that EVERYTHING we say and do throughout a child's younger years can have an impact. There's no such thing as a perfect parent, but it's so important to at least try and stay in control.

[amoline]

26 minutes ago, natureboy said:

OT, but:

  Hide contents

I'd be more careful about 'fixing' across the line than a spine tilt toward the target issue. If you're swinging up with driver, which is more important, the target line or the baseline? Fred Couples played top level golf across the line at the top even with irons. With a sand wedge sure it's likely way more swing than you need (or want) for the task.

 

 

Oh, of course -- I didn't mean that as an actual example. It wasn't actually the case and didn't happen. I was just using it as an example phrase of how something might be said. :) In fact, it was with my own swing a little while back, a little across the line was causing me some handle yanking issues. 

As you say though, that's OT 

[macksmom]

My son started playing golf competitively when he was 7. I sometimes worry that people think I might be one of "those parents", but I'm the antithesis of that. I love it when my son does well, but I fully admit that I'm clueless when it comes to golf. My son is pretty good (he's 14 now), but it's not from me or his dad pushing at all. He's just a determined kid who found golf and loved it. He is the one that was begging us to compete, because he wanted to be just like Tiger back then. He was a bit obsessive, back in the day.

I just try to be supportive and drive him around as needed. Oh, and caddy.... which has given me a lot of insight into competitive golf parents. Some of them are great. Some are kind of tough on their kids. A small few are what I consider mentally abusive. One guy had his son in a tournament and they were paired with us. We could tell his son hated golf with a passion. He was probably about 10 years old back then. The dad wanted him to be a great golfer, for some reason. The dad kept berating him.... "Give the grass a haircut!"... "What the hell is wrong with you?!" The boy was crying during the whole tournament, and was playing bad on purpose to boot which slowed our pace of play immensely. He hated golf. I finally said to the boy, "What do you enjoy doing?", and he told me how he loved to read. Honestly, if he's a good reader, then he's probably smart and will do well in life. Most kid golfers won't go pro, but a kid with smarts is a wonderful thing! 

My son happened to sink a 20 foot putt that day. The other dad was not happy. (I have it on video. LOL)

Another time, we were teamed up with this guy and his daughter. Our scored counted together. These parents were known for being really competitive. My son's ball landed against a big spruce tree, with a lot of low branches. The dad got jerky with me saying my son should hit his ball instead of a drop. I said, "No, he could hurt himself, blind himself or break his club. We're taking a drop", and the dad got all huffy. It was a casual tournament that didn't even matter really. It was just for fun. The girl was crying by the time we got to hole 6. 

Oh, and this poor girl was so competitive, that if she didn't win first place she would cry for days. Her dad told me that, and I think the parents inflicted that thinking onto her. I think that's so sad that she feels her self worth is tied into her golf game. She was probably only 8 or 9 at the time.

If you guys get a chance, check out "Trophy Kids". It's a documentary, and it' either on Netflix or Amazon Prime. Very eye-opening. The golf dad is horrible. I felt so bad for his daughter. 

[Buckeyebowman]

12 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Way to **** up your kid's self-esteem for life. Nice job arsehole.  Dude needs to learn to deal with his own sense of inadequacies on his own and not project them onto his children. Probably has a small dick and a giant truck. 

While I am not one for "participation" trophies, and "self esteem" for it's own sake, I would have felt it very hard not to brain that idiot! Both for his breach of etiquette and more for his treatment of his child!

As I've gotten older, I've come to trust children's coaches less and less. A poster just before you mentioned people who have failed at their endeavors, and seek to live vicariously through others. There are literally TONS of people coaching youth sports who are like this! It's sad! Or, they desire power and authority over others, and use this avenue to find it. Where the players are smaller and unable to defend themselves against them.

Ever notice that these kinds of people seem to get weeded out as the player's size gets closer to the coach's? These guys end up getting their lights punched out!

And it doesn't just have to be sports. Is it any wonder there are so many maladjusted people running around in this world?

[Golfingdad]

13 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

There are literally TONS of people coaching youth sports who are like this!

Well, to be fair, that's only like 20 people or so.

;)

[Buckeyebowman]

27 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Well, to be fair, that's only like 20 people or so.

;)

Caught the "winkie". And don't we wish that were so!

EDIT: And in the time It took for this response to post, I see an ad on TV about the PCA, the "Positive Coaching Alliance", addressing this exact type of behavior. Who knows what form it will take? I hope it's not the participation trophy style. But there doesn't seem to be a happy medium any more.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Buckeyebowman

[natureboy]

7 hours ago, macksmom said:

If you guys get a chance, check out "Trophy Kids". It's a documentary, and it' either on Netflix or Amazon Prime. Very eye-opening. The golf dad is horrible. I felt so bad for his daughter. 

Just watched it from your recommendation. Yeah some real malignant narcissism on display in that film from multiple parents.

The golf dad seems to lack self-awareness. I'm not sure how much he actually knows about golf either when he criticizes the kid for leaving a 25+ foot putt  a few inches from the hole. That's a good putt. Give your kid some credit.

You'd think being in two movies (also The Short Game) he'd see the effect he has on actually holding his kid back during tournaments. He should just pay the golf / swing coach who is far more positive and I would expect effective as a teacher to caddy for his kid in the big tourneys if results mean that much to him. I suspect that he wants to have a personal claim in the 'win' beyond just being her father and paying the bills and would be unable to let go of control like that, though.

Edited July 10, 2016 by natureboy

[Rainmaker]

Agree - participation trophies are NOT the answer. 

Reminding kids (and parents) that it's ok to lose at a game.  You try your best, you win or lose.  There is not a single person on Earth who hasn't come up short in some kind of contest or another - you need to learn to be a good loser as well as a good winner. 

[CyboNinja]

I just try to be patient with my daughter. Kids just need to know they're loved. The examples of abuse mentioned in this thread should be as illegal as physical abuse imho. Kids can't protect themselves and when they have shit parents it's just terrible. 

[iacas]

I'll admit to being hard on my kid at times, but an order of magnitude different from what's being discussed here. In fact, I haven't even really seen behavior like what's described here. I've seen kids crying on the golf course, sure, but the last time it happened was because a girl got a penalty (described in another thread).

But I limit (or try to, of course) how hard I am on her to the same level for other things, and I try to make sure it aligns with her goals or wishes, and is "supportive" in nature. She's competitive, but she's also just 13. Last year when she didn't work very hard over the winter, she saw the results all summer shooting in the 120s. She wasn't happy, and we even asked her if she wanted to keep playing golf. If she just wanted to play for fun, that would have been fine with us.

But she said she loved it and was upset with how poorly she played. She said "I want you to make me practice even if I am being lazy. I didn't like sucking last year." Not in those exact words of course, but we basically just kept reminding her when she'd slack of the goals she'd set for this year (average 95, shooting consistently 90-100, play 50 full rounds of golf, etc.) and that she wouldn't achieve them if she didn't work at it.

I feel it's similar to how you'd treat a bunch of things, like staying up on your kids for doing their schoolwork, or eating veggies, or treating their friends properly, or other types of lessons you have to impart on your kids.

At the end of the day I don't care if she plays golf competitively or not, but if she wants to play golf competitively, then that requires a slightly different attitude and approach than a kid just playing for fun every other weekend with me. I'm there mostly to support her but sometimes "support" means showing her the way of the world, or telling her what it takes to achieve things she wants to achieve.

And she's happier than ever, and she learned this past winter that her hard work can pay off, and she's having a great summer.

---

I'm not sure why I posted that, because honestly it's not the same thing at all… so I guess I'll just re-iterate that I have never seen behavior like what's described above. Not that I can remember, anyway.

[jkelley9]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'll admit to being hard on my kid at times, but an order of magnitude different from what's being discussed here. In fact, I haven't even really seen behavior like what's described here. I've seen kids crying on the golf course, sure, but the last time it happened was because a girl got a penalty (described in another thread).

But I limit (or try to, of course) how hard I am on her to the same level for other things, and I try to make sure it aligns with her goals or wishes, and is "supportive" in nature. She's competitive, but she's also just 13. Last year when she didn't work very hard over the winter, she saw the results all summer shooting in the 120s. She wasn't happy, and we even asked her if she wanted to keep playing golf. If she just wanted to play for fun, that would have been fine with us.

But she said she loved it and was upset with how poorly she played. She said "I want you to make me practice even if I am being lazy. I didn't like sucking last year." Not in those exact words of course, but we basically just kept reminding her when she'd slack of the goals she'd set for this year (average 95, shooting consistently 90-100, play 50 full rounds of golf, etc.) and that she wouldn't achieve them if she didn't work at it.

I feel it's similar to how you'd treat a bunch of things, like staying up on your kids for doing their schoolwork, or eating veggies, or treating their friends properly, or other types of lessons you have to impart on your kids.

At the end of the day I don't care if she plays golf competitively or not, but if she wants to play golf competitively, then that requires a slightly different attitude and approach than a kid just playing for fun every other weekend with me. I'm there mostly to support her but sometimes "support" means showing her the way of the world, or telling her what it takes to achieve things she wants to achieve.

And she's happier than ever, and she learned this past winter that her hard work can pay off, and she's having a great summer.

---

I'm not sure why I posted that, because honestly it's not the same thing at all… so I guess I'll just re-iterate that I have never seen behavior like what's described above. Not that I can remember, anyway.

But I don't feel like golf (or any sport) is a necessity. It's not something you need to become a better person (albeit it does have strengths in that area so kudos to you for the patience with your young daughter). My personal point here is that the folks that take it over the top, belittling their children on the field/course for the mistakes their making, is ludicrous to me (which you obviously have not done).

Parents need to stop pushing and/or strong-arming their children in sports, almost entirely, in my opinion. People yammer on about "oh but it teaches them <x, y, z>!" Please. Those lessons can be taught in countless other life examples where you FEEL it, without the convolution of parental pride and expectations crowding the parents' judgement. 

I was very fortunate in that my parents did this 100% correctly and I have personally thanked them for it on multiple occasions in my 20's. I was very athletic, at the top of my class in everything up until I broke my hip @ age 12. After multiple surgeries over ~4 years and a 2-year full stretch on crutches I came BACK and went hard on tennis and swimming and could compete at a high level.  My youngest brother had even more talent than me but was wishy-washy on his sport selection (tennis, then football, then lacrosse, etc). But my parents didn't focus on the typical life lessons in those sports, they found ways to teach them in other areas of our life.

What the guy in OP's first post did is horrifying to me. I cannot fathom a series of events trying my best to hold back judgement, but I can't see how that is constructive or warranted AT ALL. What would I have done if I were there? Well frankly, probably nothing because that breed of people aren't typically able to hold a logical conversation, especially with someone much younger than them. So I would have avoided it probably. Maybe if I could catch the girl on her own I would have said an encouraging word or two. 

BTW I'm not a parent yet so I'm sure you can take my opinions with a few (or more) grains of salt. But my parents raised 3 successful children without all that jazz (a chemical & biomolecular engineer, an accountant with his masters, and a chemist) and we're all very prepared for whatever life throws at us. And no, we were not showered with money as children. But they were able to provide us with everything we needed. So we didn't have the hardship of poverty on us. 

[Fourputt]

17 hours ago, macksmom said:

My son started playing golf competitively when he was 7. I sometimes worry that people think I might be one of "those parents", but I'm the antithesis of that. I love it when my son does well, but I fully admit that I'm clueless when it comes to golf. My son is pretty good (he's 14 now), but it's not from me or his dad pushing at all. He's just a determined kid who found golf and loved it. He is the one that was begging us to compete, because he wanted to be just like Tiger back then. He was a bit obsessive, back in the day.

Another time, we were teamed up with this guy and his daughter. Our scored counted together. These parents were known for being really competitive. My son's ball landed against a big spruce tree, with a lot of low branches. The dad got jerky with me saying my son should hit his ball instead of a drop. I said, "No, he could hurt himself, blind himself or break his club. We're taking a drop", and the dad got all huffy. It was a casual tournament that didn't even matter really. It was just for fun. The girl was crying by the time we got to hole 6. 

 

I might have some issues with this bit.  Did your son take the penalty for an unplayable lie?  Dropping away from the tree is understandable, doing so without adding the penalty is not - not in a competition.  (If he took the penalty, ignore the rest of this paragraph)  You call it a "casual" competition.  That's fine, but it's still a tournament and all of the competitors need to play by the same rules or fair competition goes right out the window.  If you encourage your son to breach the rules, what sort of a message does that send?

This thread is one of the reasons why the Colorado Golf Association does not allow caddies or parent involvement in their junior competitions.  The whole point is for the kids to have fun playing golf in a competitive environment, so let them play.  

I really enjoyed refereeing junior events because those kids do have fun.  They get to play their own games without any interference (aside from my occasional tutoring on rules issues), and they learn a little bit about self reliance.  When they do well, they know that they did it themselves, and most of them have a great time even if the game isn't going great that day.

[macksmom]

17 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I might have some issues with this bit.  Did your son take the penalty for an unplayable lie?  Dropping away from the tree is understandable, doing so without adding the penalty is not - not in a competition.  (If he took the penalty, ignore the rest of this paragraph)

He took the penalty. :) 

[macksmom]

The dad was mad because we took the penalty, which added to the team score, but the lie was unplayable and unsafe in my opinion. Our team won anyway, so it was a mute point. 
 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

And she's happier than ever, and she learned this past winter that her hard work can pay off, and she's having a great summer.

That's awesome! Good life lessons from a good dad.

[JonMA1]

One of our responsibilities as parents is to teach our kids to push themselves to some degree. I don't like the sports/life analogies, but too much of a "good enough" attitude doesn't always serve people well later in life.

What the OP described is on a different level.

Some kids are self-motivated to the point where parents sometimes have to step in and say "don't be so hard on yourself", while others need to be told "that isn't acceptable, you are capable of doing better and you need". Also, there are kids whose personality is to do the complete opposite of what's expected. Leave them alone and they excel. Push too hard and they'll say "screw it".

In the end, all I wanted as a parent was to guide my kids, not control them - more so as they got older. I wanted them to become decent adults and wanted to maintain a close relationship with them.

The game of golf is unique in that 80 year old parents can still play golf with their 60 year old sons or daughters. How many other activities in life allow for that?