The 8 minute tee-time slot - why do they use it?

[DaveP043]

48 minutes ago, gregsandiego said:

I don't think that works. If that white paper wasn't so impossible to ready we might refer to it, but basically it talked about the course being like a production line. In your verbal description above Group 1  is already falling behind ("12 to 14 minutes"). Group 1 really needs to tee off every 8 minutes to keep things on time.

If Group 1 is on the second tee at 8 minutes, and Group 2 is on the first tee, that means there will be only one group on each hole at any time.  That's not particularly efficient in terms of "loading the course", assuming that groups can actually play that fast (we know they can't do that consistently).

 As @Jeremie Boop says, as long as Group 1 is out of the way within 8 minutes, Group 2 can tee off on time.  Extending that, Group 2 must be out of the way on hole 1 within 16 minute of the Group 1 start, which means that Group 1 must have cleared the first green a few minutes under that total of 16 minutes in order to allow Group 2 to play and move, which in turn allows Group 3 to start on time. I might quibble with his positioning of Group 1 at 7:16, I think they should be on the second tee and hitting, which is reasonable if they left the first green at something like 7:12 or 7:14.

As for the scholarly mathematical modelling, I think their conclusion was that they could model the system, but that lots more work would need to be done to make the model into something that could be used effectively in real-world decision making.  

[mchepp]

I think a course needs to decide what kind of interval works for them. Last summer I played a course that had 10 min intervals. I asked why. They said that because they start out with a long par 4 and then a long par 3 the back up becomes pretty bad on the second tee waiting for groups. Spacing it out helps. So a course should be cognizant of how it is laid out for determining its intervals.

But as @DaveP043 mentioned the interval has nothing to do with how long it takes. Proper marshaling is the key. At my friends club they have a solution that works pretty well. They have set the preferred pace of play at 3:45. If you take more than 4:10 then everyone in your group get a letter warning them of slow play and giving recommendations on how to speed up. If that group (or anyone in that group) has another round more than 4:10 in a given year then they are restricted from getting tee times before noon in the summer months for a 3 month period.

When it first came out everyone was really upset, but now that the excitement has died down everyone loves it. He said he only knows of a few people who have gotten one letter and no one has gotten a second because the program works so well. 

[RayG]

2 hours ago, mchepp said:

I think a course needs to decide what kind of interval works for them. Last summer I played a course that had 10 min intervals. I asked why. They said that because they start out with a long par 4 and then a long par 3 the back up becomes pretty bad on the second tee waiting for groups. Spacing it out helps. So a course should be cognizant of how it is laid out for determining its intervals.

But as @DaveP043 mentioned the interval has nothing to do with how long it takes. Proper marshaling is the key. At my friends club they have a solution that works pretty well. They have set the preferred pace of play at 3:45. If you take more than 4:10 then everyone in your group get a letter warning them of slow play and giving recommendations on how to speed up. If that group (or anyone in that group) has another round more than 4:10 in a given year then they are restricted from getting tee times before noon in the summer months for a 3 month period.

When it first came out everyone was really upset, but now that the excitement has died down everyone loves it. He said he only knows of a few people who have gotten one letter and no one has gotten a second because the program works so well. 

that's great stuff.... Except-That stuff ain't gonna fly at your local Public/Muni. As has been expounded over and over, private clubs are a completely different area when discussing 'pace of play'. They can enforce any rules they wish- you signed the contract. Their house, their rules. 

[DaveP043]

13 minutes ago, RayG said:

that's great stuff.... Except-That stuff ain't gonna fly at your local Public/Muni. As has been expounded over and over, private clubs are a completely different area when discussing 'pace of play'. They can enforce any rules they wish- you signed the contract. Their house, their rules. 

At a public/muni course, its still their house and their rules.  Its just much harder to use that kind of policy, the recordkeeping is difficult, and public courses hate to take the chance of alienating customers and potentially losing business.  Yet I bet that those public courses are the ones most likely to use 8-minute slots.  I think I said it earlier in this thread, but they get paid based on how many players they get past the first tee.  The overall pace of play only becomes a problem if they start to lose business because of it.

[Aflighter]

It doesnt matter if they have tee times at 12 min intervals if the course wont mow the damn rough.Last weekend in our tournament the rough was as bad as ive ever seen.All I kept saying was if you want faster play then cut the freakin rough so you can actually find a ball.

[gregsandiego]

13 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

The first group merely needs to be out of range of the second group within 8 minutes, meaning have to have played their approach to the green/be on the green in 8 minutes. This isn't nearly as difficult or far fetched as people seem to make it out to be. The proper place for the group behind is right behind the group in front, meaning as the group in front is putting out the group behind is getting ready to hit their approach. In your spreadsheet you have a gap which shouldn't be there in if every group is in their proper position on the course. 

This is how it would/should look if everyone is playing on pace and in position:

1st Tee	Played from Fairway/approach	Green	2nd Tee
G1 *actively hitting tee shots* 7:00am
G2 *actively hitting tee shots*  7:08 am	G1 *on the way to the green*
G3 *actively hitting tee shots* 7:16 am	G2 *on the way to the green*	G1 *on the way to the next tee*
G4 *actively hitting tee shots*  7:24 am	G3 *on the way to the green*	G2  *on the way to the next tee*	G1  *actively hitting tee shots*

 

Again, this is the ideal positioning, but not necessarily how it always works out depending on the course layout/par of the holes in question. The gap will typically grow/shrink on par 5s and Par 3s. 

Are you saying group 1 tees off #1 at 7:01 and #2 at 7:24, with a 23 min gap between holes then?

 

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by gregsandiego

[Buckeyebowman]

On 8/19/2016 at 1:24 PM, mchepp said:

I think a course needs to decide what kind of interval works for them. Last summer I played a course that had 10 min intervals. I asked why. They said that because they start out with a long par 4 and then a long par 3 the back up becomes pretty bad on the second tee waiting for groups. Spacing it out helps. So a course should be cognizant of how it is laid out for determining its intervals.

Well said! I can't tell you how many courses I've seen that start you out with a relatively easy par 5, but not so short that you can't get 3 groups on it at once, only to follow it with a hellacious par 3 where the traffic jams up! Sometimes it's design related.

On 8/19/2016 at 4:07 PM, Aflighter said:

It doesnt matter if they have tee times at 12 min intervals if the course wont mow the damn rough.Last weekend in our tournament the rough was as bad as ive ever seen.All I kept saying was if you want faster play then cut the freakin rough so you can actually find a ball.

Again, well said! Sometimes courses are the cause of their own slow play problem! Who are they keeping the green for? PGA Tour pros, or the people who come to play their course week after week?

And if you're going to have rough that deep, employ forecaddies!

Edited August 21, 2016 by Buckeyebowman

[MasonAsher2014]

The country club I work at likes to use 9 minute spots. 

[David in FL]

On August 19, 2016 at 1:24 PM, mchepp said:

I think a course needs to decide what kind of interval works for them. Last summer I played a course that had 10 min intervals. I asked why. They said that because they start out with a long par 4 and then a long par 3 the back up becomes pretty bad on the second tee waiting for groups. Spacing it out helps. So a course should be cognizant of how it is laid out for determining its intervals.

But as @DaveP043 mentioned the interval has nothing to do with how long it takes. Proper marshaling is the key. At my friends club they have a solution that works pretty well. They have set the preferred pace of play at 3:45. If you take more than 4:10 then everyone in your group get a letter warning them of slow play and giving recommendations on how to speed up. If that group (or anyone in that group) has another round more than 4:10 in a given year then they are restricted from getting tee times before noon in the summer months for a 3 month period.

When it first came out everyone was really upset, but now that the excitement has died down everyone loves it. He said he only knows of a few people who have gotten one letter and no one has gotten a second because the program works so well. 

Now THAT's a club that I'd be proud to call my own!