Loading, Storing and Releasing Energy!

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, RussUK said:

Wow, this poster didnt last long. 5 posts and gone. Is there a record for quickest exit?

Shame really, this could have turned into a really good discussion had the OP been a little more open minded. Still, he may return.

Saw it coming with his very first post. Any time I see someone cut and paste a voluminous article like the above, you can almost always guarantee that they aren't interested in actual discussion.  There are exceptions, but rare enough to be very surprising when they happen. 

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, RussUK said:

Wow, this poster didnt last long. 5 posts and gone. Is there a record for quickest exit?

Shame really, this could have turned into a really good discussion had the OP been a little more open minded. Still, he may return.

I don't think he wanted a discussion. He just wanted to convey his ideas and drum up business.

[RussUK]

1 minute ago, Ernest Jones said:

Saw it coming with his very first post. Any time I see someone cut and paste a voluminous article like the above, you can almost always guarantee that they aren't interested in actual discussion.  There are exceptions, but rare enough to be very surprising when they happen. 

 

1 minute ago, boogielicious said:

I don't think he wanted a discussion. He just wanted to convey his ideas and drum up business.

Going throught the posts again, i got the feeling he wasnt expecting someone like Erik to respond as he quite rightly did. As soon as his post was questioned he took his ball and went home.

[CarlSpackler]

10 hours ago, TwinkleToes said:

iacas, no...I don't know who you are.  I apologize for not posting a link, if that is the preferred method on this site.  The point of the article, is to stimulate discussion and/or, help golfers to look at the process of loading, storing and releasing energy, in a different manner than they might have in the past.  You made a lot of generalizations about what you think I should have done with my article.  I have used this article many times in years gone by, to help other instructors to look at the process in ways that would stimulate their minds to consider things they haven't in the past.  I am sorry that you haven't seen what I have accomplished with the article but I have had many seasoned instructors through the years, to tell me that they saw and understood things that they haven't considered before. Good...that was the intent of the article.  I have also had many of my students to share with me how they finally understood things about the release that helped them to understand the kinetic chain more completely.  Good again...that was my goal.  No, the swing isn't a pressure filled tank of air, but when using analogies of any kind, anybody can pick apart the differences of the systems used for the analogy.  Since this is your site, I will be happy to back off and let you conduct things the way you see fit.  I gave my first lesson over 40 years ago and have worked with beginners, through many touring pros.  My experiences have taught me many things.  One of those being discernment as to when something could be profitable for all involved or not. I could go on and on and on, responding to your questions and comments but without doing it in a way that an open, give and take discussion, face to face, using our voices could be had, it would simply take too long to accomplish.

So that tells me that this is meant for instructors, so I will go about my business. 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, TwinkleToes said:

I absolutely love discussion.

Then discuss. That's all I've asked of you.

You seem to be more interested in posting, not being questioned, and then dismissing what I have to say simply because I'm 38 years old.

8 hours ago, TwinkleToes said:

I have certified over 1,000 golf instructors and because of that, I've been asked thousands of questions that I've had to deal with in the last few decades.

I asked you a few, but you've not answered them.

Specifically, how about the "maintain the trail knee flex" issue?

I've specifically invited you to pick that apart. Please, go ahead. Give it your best shot. If you could do it successfully, hundreds or more instructors would learn, let alone thousands of students.

8 hours ago, TwinkleToes said:

But, I believe in this case, it would be better to leave this site to iacas.  It is his site and he seems to know how he wants it done.  I will respectfully bow out and wish everybody the best.

I've been pretty clear in "how I want it done." I want a discussion, from two or more sides.

Others seem to have seen this the same way:

4 hours ago, carpediem4300 said:

2) Iacas was not inviting you into a pissing contest on who "knows more" about the golf swing, he was simply intimating that your posts are very welcome on the site but if you are going to post then stick around to discuss them and dissect them and learn a better understand of how you represent the golf swing theory to non-instructors.

3 hours ago, RussUK said:

Shame really, this could have turned into a really good discussion had the OP been a little more open minded.

2 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Saw it coming with his very first post. Any time I see someone cut and paste a voluminous article like the above, you can almost always guarantee that they aren't interested in actual discussion.  There are exceptions, but rare enough to be very surprising when they happen. 

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I don't think he wanted a discussion. He just wanted to convey his ideas and drum up business.

2 hours ago, RussUK said:

Going throught the posts again, i got the feeling he wasnt expecting someone like Erik to respond as he quite rightly did. As soon as his post was questioned he took his ball and went home.

[David in FL]

9 hours ago, TwinkleToes said:

Initially, yes!  I absolutely love discussion. I have certified over 1,000 golf instructors and because of that, I've been asked thousands of questions that I've had to deal with in the last few decades. But, I believe in this case, it would be better to leave this site to iacas.  It is his site and he seems to know how he wants it done.  I will respectfully bow out and wish everybody the best.

That's disappointing.  It seems as if you may have had a lot to contribute to the community.  

But as I said, a discussion forum is for, well, discussion, and the community here is generally intelligent and knowledgeable.  All posters, even (especially? ) @iacas are questioned, and often challenged about their thoughts and posts on various topics.  It's how we learn and ultimately become better informed ourselves.  

Equally important, the manner in which someone answers or, if necessary defends their position serves to build credibility as someone knowledgable and worthy of consideration when they post.  Of course, the converse also applies...

 

[TwinkleToes]

No hurt feelings at all guys.  I think this is a good site and the discussions are good.  I just have other sites that I participate in and I write for a magazine.  Those take up a lot of time for me, other than running a golf school full time.  I've been at this a long time and my gut usually tells me when my time might be better spent elsewhere.  Honestly, I wish all of you the best and I hope iacas is very successful at what he does.

[DaveP043]

I was interested in understand @TwinkleToes's background, so I read a bit of his website.  It seems that the basis of his teaching philosophy was not too far from what goes on here.  He seems to show an interest in understanding the biomechanics of what goes into a good swing, and using that basis to help players improve their swing.  If you want to learn about someone, its interesting to look at his friends and associates, so I looked a little further, at some of the links.  The website where he says he offers instruction, www.StrictlyGolfers.com, appears to be defunct.  The US Golf Teachers Federation, which he highly endorses, will make you a Certified Associate Instructor if you take some online courses and pass some online tests.  You can become a Certified Golf Teaching Professional if you attend a one-week on-site course.  Somehow, it seems to me that you can't really become a decent teacher based on watching some videos online, or with 5 days of instruction.  This may be a quality organization, but I'm skeptical.

Its always interesting to me to read knowledgeable instructors discuss their views on the golf swing.  Its much less interesting to read a rather long pre-written essay, and then have the writer refuse to participate in the ensuing discussion.

[RussUK]

16 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I was interested in understand @TwinkleToes's background, so I read a bit of his website.  It seems that the basis of his teaching philosophy was not too far from what goes on here.  He seems to show an interest in understanding the biomechanics of what goes into a good swing, and using that basis to help players improve their swing.  If you want to learn about someone, its interesting to look at his friends and associates, so I looked a little further, at some of the links.  The website where he says he offers instruction, www.StrictlyGolfers.com, appears to be defunct.  The US Golf Teachers Federation, which he highly endorses, will make you a Certified Associate Instructor if you take some online courses and pass some online tests.  You can become a Certified Golf Teaching Professional if you attend a one-week on-site course.  Somehow, it seems to be that you can't really become a decent teacher based on watching some videos online, or with 5 days of instruction.  This may be a quality organization, but I'm skeptical.

Its always interesting to me to read knowledgeable instructors discuss their views on the golf swing.  Its much less interesting to read a rather long pre-written essay, and then have the writer refuse to participate in the ensuing discussion.

Now thats going the extra mile. Good investigating there. 

I think he is still floating round so will be interesting to here his reactions to your findings.

Re the highlighted part, so what you are saying is that, in theory, you can become a certified golf instructor with little or no teaching experience? Do they require the applicant to have a certaing handicap?

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, RussUK said:

Re the highlighted part, so what you are saying is that, in theory, you can become a certified golf instructor with little or no teaching experience? Do they require the applicant to have a certaing handicap?

They indicate that to become a Certified Golf Teaching Professional, you'll need to pass a Playing Ability test.  I assume this is similar to the PGA requirement that aspiring PGA members pass a playing ability test, but I didn't see any details to confirm that.  http://usgtf.com/golf-certification-levels/

[RussUK]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

They indicate that to become a Certified Golf Teaching Professional, you'll need to pass a Playing Ability test.  I assume this is similar to the PGA requirement that aspiring PGA members pass a playing ability test, but I didn't see any details to confirm that.  http://usgtf.com/golf-certification-levels/

Just checked the site and looked at the FAQ's. Couldnt find anything about a valid handicap, although for applicants 19-49 years old they have to be within 4 shots of  target score of 83. They would have to at least be a decent golfer. 

One thing that gets me is that an applicant could take the online part, which i assume is the theory element, pass that and have a one off round of a lifetime and become certified.

Its actually quite scary that there may be instructors out there who have passed these sort of courses by the skin of their teeth (of by pure luck) and are now teaching people.

Sure, some may be very good but there must be many who aren't

[phillyk]

3 hours ago, TwinkleToes said:

No hurt feelings at all guys.  I think this is a good site and the discussions are good.  I just have other sites that I participate in and I write for a magazine.  Those take up a lot of time for me, other than running a golf school full time.  I've been at this a long time and my gut usually tells me when my time might be better spent elsewhere.  Honestly, I wish all of you the best and I hope iacas is very successful at what he does.

Not to say that you aren't good at what you do, but what's the point of giving advice if you don't want to back it up?  Many golf organizations have it in their mission to grow the game of golf.  You may have this key you teach, but when someone questions it, the only thing that can become of the discussion is that you understand that point better regardless if you change it or not.  We aren't trying to prove anything by questioning your methods, except to thoroughly understand what you teach.

In the end, we all are trying to improve and grow the game.

If you truly are gone, I wish you the best!

[TwinkleToes]

I actually don't promote the USGTF and more than I promote the PGA.  The difference being that the USGTF specializes in teaching rather than running a golf course, dealing with budgets, pleasing the members and teaching, like the PGA does. A person can no more become a decent teacher in 5 days, than they can become a CPA in 5 days.  I have also certified many PGA pros who have decided that they want to learn more about teaching than they do running a golf course. I didn't certify them in the PGA, I certified them in the USGTF.  The purpose being so that they have one more source to which they could go to finally become a true golf teaching pro, through many thousands of hours of teaching.  One of those Class A PGA pros, has actually told some of the people I was certifying a few years back, that he learned much more about teaching golf in the USGTF, than he has in all his years in the PGA. Those weren't my words, they were his. As far as playing ability goes and the ability to demonstrate a great golf swing; if a person wants to teach for me, they have to be able to demonstrate a great golf swing. They also have to be able to demonstrate almost any type of golf shot, upon request...and done well, while under scrutiny. A person can be a very good teacher and not be able to do that but if they have decent health, they better be able to do that or they are showing me that they don't believe what they teach. Even though I am no longer able to play, because of back problems, and being almost 60 years old, I can still demonstrate a golf swing that is as good as the top 20 percent of touring pros. Let me just add though, I am very busy in my business.  I didn't come here to try to recruit new students.  I am eye poppingly busy and have very little time to put elsewhere.  I used to get flown into other countries many times a year, for a week at a time, to train other instructors but also to conduct week long teaching seminars. I just don't have any time to do that now as I am so busy at home. I don't need any new students because I am finding it very difficult to spend the necessary time with the ones I have currently. I just strolled by this site, as I have many others in the past, and thought I would submit some articles in case someone might be interested in hearing another perspective. I didn't mean to cause any issues.  As I still write for a magazine and have to spend time training other teachers, I have to be very careful on how I allocate my time.  I have decided that it might be better for me to spend my time in other areas than right here. You have a teacher who has a lot of confidence in his abilities so it would be good for you to learn from his words. Can you appreciate my perspective? 

 

A side note: PhillyK, I constantly back up what I proclaim.  I just choose to do it where the time spent is more efficiently used. If you were to talk to anybody I have trained in the past, any of them would tell you that I never shy away from being willing to discuss.  Unless I have decided that in that particular forum or venue, my time would be better spent elsewhere. I still have to answer and deal with questions from hundreds of teachers around the globe on a continual basis.  I just don't have the time to spend in some areas.

Edited November 15, 2016 by TwinkleToes

[iacas]

55 minutes ago, RussUK said:

Its actually quite scary that there may be instructors out there who have passed these sort of courses by the skin of their teeth (of by pure luck) and are now teaching people.

You're missing out on the fact that you don't have to do anything to call yourself a teaching professional.

Just take money for lessons. Bam. You're a teaching pro. I think you'd be surprised at how many "instructors" have little to no training.

Yeah, that's upsetting and disappointing, but…

11 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Not to say that you aren't good at what you do, but what's the point of giving advice if you don't want to back it up?

Steve's not here to discuss. He's here to drive-by post.

11 minutes ago, phillyk said:

We aren't trying to prove anything by questioning your methods, except to thoroughly understand what you teach.

Steve: can you elaborate on why you think the trail knee should "maintain its flex"?

You can do so right here:

Please, discuss. It's disingenuous to just come here, post, and then not want to discuss any of the things you've said.

1 minute ago, TwinkleToes said:

Even though I am no longer able to play, because of back problems, and being almost 60 years old, I can still demonstrate a golf swing that is as good as the top 20 percent of touring pros.

What makes their golf swing different than the 25th percentile of Touring pros?

[Phil McGleno]

Steve-Nobody is as busy as you say you are. If you were that busy you would not be able to tell a guy calling about a lesson that you are -wide open- the day he chose.And how do you have the time to keep defending your position to not discuss anything?-Seems it would have been easier to just discuss the few points raised by now.

http://www.thetexasgolfacademy.com

Ah-I found the source of the articles you are copying and pasting here.

http://www.thetexasgolfacademy.com/GOLF_ARTICLES.html

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrk1bR1zMwtN_W5ESClsefw

HEre is the main one for anyone who cares.-http://www.thetexasgolfacademy.com/TEACHING_PHILOSOPHY.html

I am not advocating in the least piling on or anything like that.-But Steve a little honesty please. Discuss a few of the things. You obviously care about golf if you have devoted your life to it. Are you beyond learning and growing or even if you are not able to in helping others to learn and grow? I see people here asking questions of you and you only answer the one about the USGTF.

[TwinkleToes]

This will be my last response.  Before I go any further though, I will say iacas, you would be the only person on the planet who does not have comfort zones.  Every single person living, has comfort zones.

 

Now...why should the right leg maintain flex through the backswing?  Many reasons, to maintain the correct hip level, consistent loading pressure, promotion of correct secondary spine angle, and keeping the tolerances tight for the transition. That is why 99.9% of playing pros do not straighten the trailing leg (R for R/hander) in their backswing. If the trailing leg is correctly positioned in this manner, a myriad of compensations will not be necessary in the remaining motion. If not, many compensations will need to be implemented.

 

Now...as I have stated why I am finding it necessary to spend my time in other areas where I feel it will be used more efficiently, I would like to cease my posts and just accept that I made a mistake in coming here...at least as far as some of you may be concerned.  For me, it was no mistake.  Why?  Because I always love to learn more about every aspect of life. I learned some things while visiting here. What I learned will help me to communicate to others more effectively in the future.

 

I wish all of you the best as you enjoy this great game! Please forgive me if my words were offensive.

 

Thanks again for the time I was allowed to spend here.

[DaveP043]

22 minutes ago, TwinkleToes said:

  I didn't come here to try to recruit new students.

I just strolled by this site, as I have many others in the past, and thought I would submit some articles in case someone might be interested in hearing another perspective. I didn't mean to cause any issues. 

As I still write for a magazine and have to spend time training other teachers, I have to be very careful on how I allocate my time.  I have decided that it might be better for me to spend my time in other areas than right here. 

I don't think you've come here to promote yourself, or your site, you haven't tried to push your website or anything else.  But many of us really ARE interested in hearing other viewpoints.  We're also interested in discussing them, not simply reading a canned presentation.  To post something here, and then claim you don't have enough time in your life to discuss it further is really rather insulting to those of us who took OUR time to read the original post.

[iacas]

To be clear, Steve, a lot of what you wrote on the page Phil just linked to, I could have written.

I've trained hundreds of instructors myself. I understand that teaching is a blend of science and art. And communication. Etc. etc.

All I'm asking of you is to stand behind what you post and engage in a discussion.

You've posted again so I'll respond a bit.

7 minutes ago, TwinkleToes said:

This will be my last response.  Before I go any further though, I will say iacas, you would be the only person on the planet who does not have comfort zones.  Every single person living, has comfort zones.

If that's how you took that, I think you took it wrong. I'm saying I don't get comfortable. I actively work against just being lazy and comfortable and teaching the same old things. I'm constantly questioning myself, the things I hear from others, etc. I encourage that here, too, and with the guy I teach with, and so on.

7 minutes ago, TwinkleToes said:

Now...why should the right leg maintain flex through the backswing?  Many reasons, to maintain the correct hip level, consistent loading pressure, promotion of correct secondary spine angle, and keeping the tolerances tight for the transition. That is why 99.9% of playing pros do not straighten the trailing leg (R for R/hander) in their backswing.

A point of clarification: I'd agree that most PGA Tour pros do not "straighten" if you take that as a binary state, but you said "maintain the flex" which implies that you don't want the right knee to extend at all.

Virtually every PGA Tour player and good golfer extends the trail knee. They maintain "some" flex, but they don't maintain "the" flex - the flex established at setup.

I disagree, generally speaking with the rest of what you wrote, and I've done quite a bit of study with SwingCatalyst and other force plates, pressure plates, etc. I've talked with Dr. Kwon, visited with Mike Duffey at Penn State's biomechanics lab, etc. Virtually all good golfers extend the trail knee, pressure shifts into the right foot during the backswing, they don't sway their hips, their hips turn on an inclined angle… etc.

So the next step is to discuss each of those things, but I don't imagine you're interested.

So, to simplify and take the first step, please clarify what you mean by "That is why 99.9% of playing pros do not straighten the trailing leg (R for R/hander) in their backswing."

7 minutes ago, TwinkleToes said:

Now...as I have stated why I am finding it necessary to spend my time in other areas where I feel it will be used more efficiently, I would like to cease my posts and just accept that I made a mistake in coming here...at least as far as some of you may be concerned. For me, it was no mistake. Why? Because I always love to learn more about every aspect of life. I learned some things while visiting here. What I learned will help me to communicate to others more effectively in the future.

If you're not thinking it was a mistake, nobody else is either. So where's the "mistake"?

Nobody's asking you to go. The opposite is more accurate.