Do the Rules Significantly Contribute to Golf's Perception of Being Stuffy and Elitist?

[natureboy]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

The entire premise of your thread is critically flawed.

The supposed 'premise' is partly your invention. I said the perceptions of the rules contributed / reinforced negative attitudes that keep some away, not that they were the primary reason people didn't try golf.

The surveys in the OP clearly document a strong residual (and IMO unfair) negative perception of the whole of the game of golf. I don't know how much they might, but I simply expect they are less than neutral in contributing to negative outsider perceptions.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, natureboy said:

The supposed 'premise' is partly your invention. I said the perceptions of the rules contributed / reinforced negative attitudes that keep some away, not that they were the primary reason people didn't try golf.

Wrong again, Kevin. I've not invented anything here. I just strongly disagree with your premise.

I think the perceptions of the rules keep almost nobody away, and you've yet to demonstrate that it's true at all.

I think @Lihu was pretty close: the number of people who don't play golf because of the reasons you're supposing in this thread is close to zero.

2 minutes ago, natureboy said:

The surveys in the OP clearly document a strong residual (and IMO unfair) negative perception of the whole of the game of golf.

What's that got to do with your premise: that the rules - as understood by people who haven't read the rules and who don't play golf - present the game as stuffy/elitist?

[natureboy]

16 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

As a beginner the last thing I cared about were the rules.  I was #1 concerned about learning how to hit a golf ball somewhat consistently.  Once I spent enough time on the range the next focus was etiquette, I didn't want to do something that was going to mess up my playing partners game.  I picked up after double par, if I struggled on a particular hole I just dropped the ball near my playing partner, the goal was to get through a round not follow the rules.  

Just in the course of playing golf with my buddies they would educate me on basic rules like OB, hitting a provisional, relief from golf cart, unplayable lies, etc but I went quite a while before I ever opened up the rule book to actually read it because I wasn't at a playing level where it was warranted.  

Erik is right in the post below, I'm primarily talking about golfers outside golf being less inclined to take it up.

I got caught up thinking about an earlier point about no beginner ever encountering the rules via the rulebook from the get-go.

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

But… once you got to this point, you were already beyond the point @natureboy is talking about.

He's talking about non-golfers not even giving golf a shot because they think the rules present golf as stuffy/elitist. Even though they haven't read the rules. They maybe just saw a rules thing on TV once… or something…?

No that's putting words in my mouth just like the title of this thread. I have consistently said the perception of the complexity and language of the rules may contribute or reinforce the the negative outside impressions of the the game held by many evidenced by the surveys in the OP (and not my personal opinion) as 'boring and stuffy'.

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Wrong again, Kevin. I've not invented anything here.

It's not my premise. Let me change the title of the thread if you're not about inventing anything.

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think the perceptions of the rules keep almost nobody away, and you've yet to demonstrate that it's true at all.

I disagree. Do you have to demonstrate that your point is true? We have a difference of opinion.

I think some surveys directly addressing the issue would be valuable. At the very least it would silence folks who hold this erroneous position like me, some golf commentators, and golf professionals, who make this point about the rules' complexity from time to time, yes?

I think the DJ situation is a case in point of large external public perception about the rules even though people haven't directly experienced them.

Edited November 30, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

Just now, natureboy said:

No that's putting words in my mouth just like the title of this thread.

No, it's not. And enough's enough - the current title is very nearly what you suggested.

When you suggest a more appropriate title I'll change it.

4 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I have consistently said the perception of the complexity and language of the rules may contribute or reinforce the the negative outside impressions of the the game held by many evidenced by the surveys in the OP (and not my personal opinion) as 'boring and stuffy'.

And others have consistently disagreed that it plays a role.

If golf is seen by someone as stuffy and elitist, or "boring," then changing the rules is going to have virtually no impact at all. Or, to put it another way, someone who sees golf as stuffy, boring, and elitist is not going to change their opinion of the game because the rules of golf are changed.

That's what I mean by "the entire premise of this thread is critically flawed." In two ways:

1. Virtually nobody out there is not taking up golf because of the Rules that they haven't read.
2. Virtually nobody out there is swinging their decision scale from "cool" to "elitist" because of the Rules.

[70sSanO]

IMHO...

The USGA rules have absolutely no impact on the perception that golf is stuffy and elitist.  However, the swing rules that have a significant impact on that perception.

Think about it.  A father takes his son or daughter out to hit a few baseballs.  After a few basics, he places the ball on a "tee" and let's the kid swing.  Maybe a few pointers, but not once does he say, "You'll never be able to play baseball with all those swing flaws, you need to take lessons."  I'll bet that kid never has to worry about swing thoughts.

I'm not saying that those aspects of a golf swing are not valid, and the physics behind them, but it is an elitist perception that one should spend hundreds of dollars just to learn to even hit the ball.  This is even more telling when many other sports can be successful self taught... or at the minimum a group lesson.

John

[boogielicious]

8 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

I agree with him in a way.  I believe most sports rules are just as complex (or more) than golfs. For some reason though, I believe some people could think that golf rules are hard(er) to understand, and as such, a bit elitist.

People get that impression from players who complain about the rules because they don't like, "play it as it lies" and lost/OB ball rules. Just think of the line of scrimmage rules in NFL football alone and it is far more complex than 'play it as it lies' and the drop rules in golf. (Just ask the Ravens).

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook/

I coached soccer for 12 years. It took great effort for me to get parents to understand the offside rule in soccer. They were getting hockey and soccer confused.

The perceived elitism comes from expensive private country clubs. Those who venture into the sport and play munis and nice, inexpensive public course find out quickly that golf as a sport is not elitist.

 

[RussUK]

40 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

People get that impression from players who complain about the rules because they don't like, "play it as it lies" and lost/OB ball rules. Just think of the line of scrimmage rules in NFL football alone and it is far more complex than 'play it as it lies' and the drop rules in golf. (Just ask the Ravens).

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook/

I coached soccer for 12 years. It took great effort for me to get parents to understand the offside rule in soccer. They were getting hockey and soccer confused.

The perceived elitism comes from expensive private country clubs. Those who venture into the sport and play munis and nice, inexpensive public course find out quickly that golf as a sport is not elitist.

 

This is so true. There are still many clubs around where members have to wear the club blazer or tie when in the clubhouse (one near me just like this) and even clubs that still refuse to allow members of the opposite sex and its not just the men olny clubs that do this as there are ladies only clubs that wont allow male members. 

I play Willow Valley G&CC and its a privately owned club but its cheap for the 9 hole and the middle 18 hole course and i have never felt out of place there.

[14ledo81]

59 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

People get that impression from players who complain about the rules because they don't like, "play it as it lies" and lost/OB ball rules. Just think of the line of scrimmage rules in NFL football alone and it is far more complex than 'play it as it lies' and the drop rules in golf. (Just ask the Ravens).

 

Agreed.  Maybe because more people watch (or play growing up) the main sports, their rules don't seem as complicated?

 

 

59 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

 

The perceived elitism comes from expensive private country clubs. Those who venture into the sport and play munis and nice, inexpensive public course find out quickly that golf as a sport is not elitist.

 

I agree with your second part that they find out quickly that golf is not elitist.  They may not have known that going in though.  Even at a local public course.  I know when I first tried playing, I picked the most backwoods 9 hole course I could find.  I was nervous to make a fool of myself or get called out for doing the wrong thing.  I knew that golf had a certain etiquette, but definitely did not know the proper way to act.  

 

[newtogolf]

It's human nature as described in the children's fable, "The Fox and The Grapes".  After making an effort and failing to get the delicious looking grapes the fox consoled himself by convincing himself the grapes were probably sour anyway.  

It's anecdotal but a high percentage of people I know that don't play golf, tried to play it.  Some were honest enough to admit that it's a difficult sport and they had neither the time or patience to play.  Others went to other more traditional excuses, it's too expensive, the people are snobs (it's elite),  it takes too long, etc.  I've never heard anyone not continue to play because of the rules.  These people that quit barely made it off the range (some should have stayed longer at the range) so the rules were the least of their concerns.  

I almost quit because it's down right embarrassing to hit ground ball after ground ball 50 yards while your buddies and business associates are hitting the ball well and trying to encourage you to keep trying.  

The rules are the rules, I have the rule book in my bag and on my iPhone.  When something comes up in our money game that we've never encountered we make a quick search and see how it's handled.  The 80-20 rules applies, 80% of the situations that arise during a normal round of golf can be answered within 20% of the RoG.  We've learned to hit a provisional whenever there's a risk of us being OB or the ball not being found which solves most of our problems, the rest of the situations are balls in hazard or unplayable lies.  

Those that are trying to create simpler rules or those that support them are grasping at straws and incorrectly believe a simpler set of rules will encourage more people to take up the sport.  IMO, a simplification to the rules will do little or nothing to increase participation in golf.

Most established golfers have issues with the rules in how they regulate equipment, equipment use and the anchored stroke which is completely different that the OP or the objective of those looking to simplify the rules.  

[70sSanO]

The other aspect that hurts has been the demise of the public pitch and putt courses over the years.

As a kid it was fun to play and it didn't matter if I rolled the ball almost all the way there on some holes because there were those times when I actually got the ball in the air.  But for the most part, those days are gone as cities no longer want or can spend the money on maintaining a golf course.

Those courses catered to families and retired people.  A totally different vibe and a place to go and learn to play without making a fool of yourself.

John

Edited November 30, 2016 by 70sSanO

[krupa]

4 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

Maybe because more people watch (or play growing up) the main sports, their rules don't seem as complicated?

It's partly that and it's partly because mainstream sports (football, baseball*, basketball, etc) have uniform playing fields so the rules/decisions don't have to cover as many unique situations as come up on the golf course.

*baseball stadiums frequently have a couple local rules about what happens when a ball bounces off some unique feature (usually in the outfield) in the stadium.  

Edited November 30, 2016 by krupa

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

The other aspect that hurts has been the demise of the public pitch and putt courses over the years.

This topic isn't really about general things like "why do people quit golf?" or "why does someone decide not to take up golf?"

It's about the influence of the rules in why people choose not to take up golf. Just the rules.

(And not "club rules" like "no denim in the dining room" - the Rules of Golf.)

[Groucho Valentine]

Generally, no. I don't think the rules of the game effect how people think of it.

But I've seen the eyes roll when people watch golf on HD television and see a player disqualified or penalized because his ball moved a fraction of an inch, or some guy brushed a blade of grass with his club inn a hazard. It doesn't help. 

[Golfingdad]

3 hours ago, newtogolf said:

It's anecdotal but a high percentage of people I know that don't play golf, tried to play it.  Some were honest enough to admit that it's a difficult sport and they had neither the time or patience to play.  Others went to other more traditional excuses, it's too expensive, the people are snobs (it's elite),  it takes too long, etc.  I've never heard anyone not continue to play because of the rules.  These people that quit barely made it off the range (some should have stayed longer at the range) so the rules were the least of their concerns. 

Yup.  That's my experience as well.  People who haven't taken up golf or are just getting into it have absolutely no reason to even know or care about the rules.

To say that there are people who wouldn't try golf because of the rules would be like saying that there are kids out there who don't want to take up soccer because offsides is dumb, or they won't play football because its not fair that you're not allowed to push the punter after he kicks it.

[krupa]

Quote

Do the Rules Significantly Contribute to Golf's Perception of Being Stuffy and Elitist?

No.

Quote

Do the Rules of Etiquette Significantly Contribute to Golf's Perception of Being Stuffy and Elitist?

Yes, even though a lot of them boil down to "be considerate of the people around you."

[jamo]

Part of me can understand the premise of this thread, but most of me recognizes that it's dumb to think that, say, stroke and distance would ever keep someone from taking up golf.

[Golfingdad]

Just now, jamo said:

Part of me can understand the premise of this thread, but most of me recognizes that it's dumb to think that, say, stroke and distance would ever keep someone from taking up golf.

Not me.  What if you had a stroke and you lived 50 miles from the nearest golf course?  Those would be two pretty good reasons not to golf, right?

Rim shot!!!

[JonMA1]

21 hours ago, natureboy said:

Even if undeserved, perceptions can matter. The rules as presented to a new or prospective golfer may compound / add to a common outsider perception of golf as boring / stuffy and whether a casual tv viewer intrigued by the game itself decides to give it a try.

I think the rules of golf may add to the perception of golf being boring and stuffy.

Those of us who play by the rules believe it to be an important part of the game. How do we act when another does not, or criticizes the rules as too complicated or unfair? Reactions from more experienced players can easily be construed as a little condescending. Hence a defensive reaction that the game is stuffy.

As far as the impact it has on prospective golfers, it's likely far below any of the more common reasons.