Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I agree with you, by the way, that it seems superfluous to have both yellow and red hazards. But I do get why you would keep them.

I'm probably going to flip on that.

11 minutes ago, Big C said:

If a player feels that leaving the flagstick in works to his disadvantage, he has the option to remove it. 

But why should he be disadvantaged just because he's on the opposite side of the hole?

Why should players at one course with a certain flagstick have an easier time making putts than players at another course?

11 minutes ago, Big C said:

As to the rule itself, I agree with you that it is unlikely to make the final cut. But it won't bother me much if it does.

It would bother me a lot.

[Big C]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm probably going to flip on that.

But why should he be disadvantaged just because he's on the opposite side of the hole?

Why should players at one course with a certain flagstick have an easier time making putts than players at another course?

It would bother me a lot.

Well even conceding that it's an advantage, the benefit is so minute/incremental (.01 SG? .02?), and the occurrence so infrequent (I rarely see leaning flagsticks at the courses I play - when it does happen, how often are competitors going to be 180 degrees across from one another?) that it amounts to gnashing of teeth over nothing, IMO. 

Even if you suggest that a competitor might find himself on the wrong side of a leaning flag-stick once in every single round he plays, it will take him a full 50 rounds to lose a single expected stroke to another FC who miraculously finds himself on the right side of that leaning flagstick every single time.

I'm sorry but I just can't see it as something to raise an issue over. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Big C said:

Well even conceding that it's an advantage, the benefit is so minute/incremental (.01 SG? .02?), and the occurrence so infrequent (I rarely see leaning flagsticks at the courses I play - when it does happen, how often are competitors going to be 180 degrees across from one another?) that it amounts to gnashing of teeth over nothing, IMO.

Way more than 0.01. Way way more. And I see flagsticks leaning fairly often, and it doesn't matter if players are 180° from each other in a foursome, but over the entire round, that matters. Holes are round. They should play as about the same, not favor approaching from one direction over the other.

Haven't you ever just whacked putts on the practice green when they have the little flagsticks that you can use to pull your balls out of the cups? You can smack them from five feet away and anything that hits the hole at all is pretty likely to go in. People underestimate how much of an advantage the flagstick being in the hole is.

1 minute ago, Big C said:

Even if you suggest that a competitor might find himself on the wrong side of a leaning flag-stick once in every single round he plays, it will take him a full 50 rounds to lose a single expected stroke to another FC who miraculously finds himself on the right side of that leaning flagstick every single time.

You're completely guessing on the advantage.

1 minute ago, Big C said:

I'm sorry but I just can't see it as something to raise an issue over. 

I disagree. Strongly.

[Big C]

Just now, iacas said:

You're completely guessing on the advantage.

Guilty as charged! I used .02 strokes gained for leaving the flagstick in as the basis for my assessment. 1 time per round x 50 rounds x .02 S.G = 1 full stroke. 

But back on topic, we shall agree to disagree and see what the comment period holds. 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

Guilty as charged! I used .02 strokes gained for leaving the flagstick in as the basis for my assessment. 1 time per round x 50 rounds x .02 S.G = 1 full stroke.

It's way more than that.

Where would you draw the line? If leaving the flagstick in makes it 20% more likely that I can make a putt by just rapping the ball at the hole…? Is 20% enough? 10%? Because putting, particularly inside 10', falls off pretty quickly. 10% is a huge boost.

Not to mention that even when the ball doesn't go in, unless you SMASH it, the ball will likely be sitting within tap-in range, even if you hit it hard enough to send it six or nine feet past the hole.

[Big C]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's way more than that.

Ok. Honest question (if a bit off topic). What do you think the true strokes gained advantage to leaving the flag-stick in when putting? .02 was my best estimate, based on my anecdotal experience. Where would you peg that number?

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

Where would you draw the line? If leaving the flagstick in makes it 20% more likely that I can make a putt by just rapping the ball at the hole…? Is 20% enough? 10%? Because putting, particularly inside 10', falls off pretty quickly. 10% is a huge boost.

I'm not really drawing the line anywhere. Everyone gets the same potential advantage with this new rule. Whether that number is 20%, 10%, or 1%, my only contention was that removing the flag-stick on the green wasn't something I viewed as fundamental to the principles of golf. 

Edited to add: The strokes gained sidebar discussion was only in the context of a leaning flagstick: In those instances where someone is compelled to remove the flag because it would clearly hurt him. Do those situations occur with enough regularity and do they create enough of an inequity that it should be a significant consideration in the discussion of this rule? In my opinion, no.

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, Big C said:

Ok. Honest question (if a bit off topic). What do you think the true strokes gained advantage to leaving the flag-stick in when putting? .02 was my best estimate, based on my anecdotal experience. Where would you peg that number?

It's probably more than that. It would be tough to really quantify with out knowing the percentage of putts made. So, when you come up with 0.02 I have some reservations.

Let's say you make 75% from 5 FT, and keeping the flagstick in jumps that to 80%. You are saving 0.05 strokes there. If you were to hit a putt 10 FT past and it ends up 3 FT from the pin instead, lets say from a 50 FT putt. You are saving 0.57 strokes right there. 

It can add up quick. If you are hitting 100 5-ft putts a season, that is 5 strokes gained. 

 

 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Big C said:

Ok. Honest question (if a bit off topic). What do you think the true strokes gained advantage to leaving the flag-stick in when putting? .02 was my best estimate, based on my anecdotal experience. Where would you peg that number?

Significantly higher.

17 minutes ago, Big C said:

I'm not really drawing the line anywhere. Everyone gets the same potential advantage with this new rule.

I don't think they should get the advantage at all. We play into a hole.

You can debate how big of an advantage it is to leave the flagstick in when OFF the putting green… and it is not super high there but that's because of the likelihood of the ball hitting the flagstick from farther away.

From ten feet? Five feet? Three feet? The odds increase dramatically.

We play into a hole. We don't play into a region with a blocking/deflecting/dampening device (that can vary course to course, or hole to hole, and come into play on EVERY hole for EVERY player, unlike how infrequently players hit the flagstick now).

17 minutes ago, Big C said:

Edited to add: The strokes gained sidebar discussion was only in the context of a leaning flagstick: In those instances where someone is compelled to remove the flag because it would clearly hurt him. Do those situations occur with enough regularity and do they create enough of an inequity that it should be a significant consideration in the discussion of this rule? In my opinion, no.

The current rule gives 0 advantage/disadvantage.

[Big C]

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It's probably more than that. It would be tough to really quantify with out knowing the percentage of putts made. So, when you come up with 0.02 I have some reservations.

Let's say you make 75% from 5 FT, and keeping the flagstick in jumps that to 80%. You are saving 0.05 strokes there. If you were to hit a putt 10 FT past and it ends up 3 FT from the pin instead, lets say from a 50 FT putt. You are saving 0.57 strokes right there. 

It can add up quick. If you are hitting 100 5-ft putts a season, that is 5 strokes gained. 

 

 

For any halfway decent putter, I would be surprised if their make percentage from 5 feet changed at all. I just don't hit those putts hard enough for the flag to offer any advantage. There are certainly some close putts that I miss due to speed, but all of those misses are generally around the edge of the cup. Maybe I would make an extra 10 footer that I got a bit aggressive on. And the "stopping power" of the flag could certainly help with the occasional runaway lag putt. So I can see the possibility of some advantage. But .05 or more?? I'm not seeing it.

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

From ten feet? Five feet? Three feet? The odds increase dramatically.

As I replied to Matt above, I just don't agree. If I'm making 90% of my 3 footers with the flag-stick out, I'm making that exact same number with the flag stick in. When I miss those putts, it's due to pushes and pulls - and the flag won't save any of those misses.

 

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Big C said:

For any halfway decent putter, I would be surprised if their make percentage from 5 feet changed at all.

I'd take that bet with 10-1 odds if you wanted. It would change it significantly.

16 minutes ago, Big C said:

I just don't hit those putts hard enough for the flag to offer any advantage.

You would learn to!!!!

16 minutes ago, Big C said:

But .05 or more?? I'm not seeing it.

More.

16 minutes ago, Big C said:

As I replied to Matt above, I just don't agree. If I'm making 90% of my 3 footers with the flag-stick out, I'm making that exact same number with the flag stick in.

You'd make more.

Sorry, Colin, but I think you're way off the mark here. I wish I'd filmed and recorded more data during my testing last fall… it's significantly easier to make a putt with the flagstick in from areas where you're close enough to hit the center two or three inches or so of the hole (because it's not like you have to hit something dead center for it to help you).

[No Mulligans]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'd take that bet with 10-1 odds if you wanted. It would change it significantly.

You would learn to!!!!

More.

You'd make more.

Sorry, Colin, but I think you're way off the mark here. I wish I'd filmed and recorded more data during my testing last fall… it's significantly easier to make a putt with the flagstick in from areas where you're close enough to hit the center two or three inches or so of the hole (because it's not like you have to hit something dead center for it to help you).

Here's an example I find myself often on my home course.  A 2 to 3 footer with significant slope and significant break.  If I baby it to the hole it's hard to make it, if I charge at the hole and lip out I'm going to have a long next putt.  With a flag in I'd be much more comfortable with an aggressive putt.  Same goes for a short straight down hill putt on bumpy poa annua green.  There are a lot of situations where I'd learn to putt more aggressively.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

Here's an example I find myself often on my home course.  A 2 to 3 footer with significant slope and significant break.  If I baby it to the hole it's hard to make it, if I charge at the hole and lip out I'm going to have a long next putt.  With a flag in I'd be much more comfortable with an aggressive putt.  Same goes for a short straight down hill putt on bumpy poa annua green.

Yep.

Never mind that this would slow play quite a bit as players debate whether to put the flagstick back in, leave it out, take it out, "adjust it" so it's "straight," etc.

Most of the time I play golf the flagstick comes out once, and goes back in once. This will possibly have people taking it out, putting it back in, etc. multiple times.

[Big C]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'd take that bet with 10-1 odds if you wanted. It would change it significantly.

You would learn to!!!!

More.

You'd make more.

Sorry, Colin, but I think you're way off the mark here. I wish I'd filmed and recorded more data during my testing last fall… it's significantly easier to make a putt with the flagstick in from areas where you're close enough to hit the center two or three inches or so of the hole (because it's not like you have to hit something dead center for it to help you).

Alright - I was looking for the "waving the white flag" emoticon, but couldn't find it!

Good discussion, now I'm off to dinner.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Big C said:

Alright - I was looking for the "waving the white flag" emoticon, but couldn't find it!

Found him. -------> 

 

[Buckeyebowman]

11 hours ago, krupa said:

So not only could we hit it without penalty, we could adjust it for maximum advantage?  Makes me wonder if any pace-of-play advantage gained by not having to remove it is going to be lost by people messing with it.

I and a friend played yesterday. Several times, when I had a long approach putt, I asked my friend to leave the flagstick in. He'd go study his line while I putted. I'd then walk up to the hole, pull the flag, and either putt out or mark. Then my friend would putt.

Frankly, I think the cause of slow play is slow players! We were able to play 18 in 3 hours 5 minutes.

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

If leaving the flagstick in makes it 20% more likely that I can make a putt by just rapping the ball at the hole…?

I'm still not understanding why you would advocate for smacking the ball at the hole.  I mean, the flagstick is only, what, 1/2" in diameter?  The ball is 1.6"?  That is less than half the width of the entire hole, that means that some of the putts that you try to hammer into the flag but just slightly push or pull would miss the flag entirely and your capture speed would be shot to hell.  So not only did you miss, but now you're probably further away than you just were.

There is still the occasional 4' or so putt where I am indecisive about the amount of break and I'll sometimes choose to hit it harder and take out some break and on those, if allowed, I would leave the stick in.  But on all other putts inside of about 15' or so (maybe 10-12') ... I'd be inclined to continue to remove the flag.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I'm still not understanding why you would advocate for smacking the ball at the hole.  I mean, the flagstick is only, what, 1/2" in diameter?  The ball is 1.6"?  That is less than half the width of the entire hole, that means that some of the putts that you try to hammer into the flag but just slightly push or pull would miss the flag entirely and your capture speed would be shot to hell.  So not only did you miss, but now you're probably further away than you just were.

You can hit a ball hard enough to take break out but be reasonably certain to hit the middle two inches of the hole to get the benefit of the flagstick.

Drew, just go do it sometime. I think you'll quickly discover how much easier it is to make putts, particularly from 3-5', with the flagstick in.

A right edge putt from 4' requires much less precise aim and distance control if you can just aim right-center and hit the putt a bit harder.

6 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

There is still the occasional 4' or so putt where I am indecisive about the amount of break and I'll sometimes choose to hit it harder and take out some break and on those, if allowed, I would leave the stick in.  But on all other putts inside of about 15' or so (maybe 10-12') ... I'd be inclined to continue to remove the flag.

You'd be dumb not to leave the flagstick in… as we discussed before.

Just go try it sometime. The flagstick in gives you almost a 3” wide target for a huge range of speeds.

[Hardspoon]

I'm skeptical of the flagstick rule, although not as vehemently as others.

I'm with @iacas that putting with the flagstick in will have a significant impact on making putts, especially in close.  However, that's not the reason I dislike the rule.  My biggest objection is this:

3 hours ago, iacas said:

It is to me. For the most part, we play it into a hole, not a hole with a blocking/deflecting/dampening device in it.

Exactly.  Right now, golf is a game where you try to get the ball into a hole in the ground.  The flagstick is a "necessary evil", in order to make that hole more visible from a distance.  By removing the flagstick on the putting green, you eliminate its effect on 99.9% of shots (if not more).

I do think that if they keep this rule, they'll have to standardize the size (diameter) of the flagstick at least.

@Pete's suggestion of a fixed flagstick is probably the way they should go if this does become the rule.