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Is pace of play (or slow play) a real problem?


Jakester23
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Pace of Play  

129 members have voted

  1. 1. Is slow play a real problem?

    • Yes
      101
    • No
      28


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Played last Sunday. Was planning on practicing, so did not have my push cart. Was invited to play, so walked the front with 2 other guys. One guy quit after 9, and since I don't like to carry, got a cart for the back. We played through three groups, and caught a foursome on 16 that were playing from the wrong tees. There was nobody in front of these guys. We had to wait on 18 tee while they teed off. We asked what time they teed off, and they said 9:08. It was 2:06. We teed off at 11:00. Slow play is a big problem.

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On 3/16/2017 at 9:43 PM, iacas said:

Unless the first group also talks about how they'd be scratch if they could have a better mental game, that is.

But I could man!

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This entirely depends on where you play. I play courses that usually have three groups and a couple of singles out per side, and I would say no, but then I get to an urban course, like Long. Island, or South Florida, and it's anger management time. 

I like to watch my friends's shots, and compliment their successes, I take a couple practice swings if I am in an uneven lie, or whatever, but I am not going to spend time searching for extra balls while walking between shots, or sit and BS at the tee before shooting. For some reason I am always ready to hit first, honors or no, and I just don't get why people take so long there. As long as I can do the things I enjoy, like watching my shots and my friends shots, and take due care taking my shots and putting, I don't feel rushed, but three hours for a foursome means you have four serious golfers. My golfing is more social so that is unlikely to happen. I play with one guy who takes pace seriously, and we do fine. 

If we want to pick up the pace of a group, we play best ball.

Maybe the conversations on the tee are because that's where everybody gathers together for the next hole and people like to talk. I like to play golf.

Edited by Moppy
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16 hours ago, Fourputt said:

My home course put up pace of play clocks a couple of years ago, and it seems to be helping with the idea of what the pace should be.  There are 3 clocks on each side, and they are set so that when you get to that tee, the time shown should be your starting time or earlier - no need to try and remember any 2nd grade math to figure it out.  

If the time on the clock is later than your starting time, then you are behind the pace and should make every effort to catch up, if possible (meaning that the group in front is not holding you up).  This way all the ranger has to do is point at the clock and a group has no justifiable excuse.  It has made players much more aware of pace of play expectations, and in most groups there is at least one player who will comment on it when they fall behind.

This is a great idea, but I question its implementation. I've been behind groups that are 2 holes behind the group in front of them yet on time with the pace clock (and they didn't tee off with a tee time gap at all). So, they should be asked to try to make up the gap. But the ranger won't do it because they're ahead of the clock. I also think the clocks should be set to a faster time - I think they're set to 4:15 or 4:30, but I think they should be set to 4:00 even.

Edited by DeadMan

-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

:callaway: Rogue Pro 3-PW :edel: SMS Wedges - V-Grind (48, 54, 58):edel: Putter

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On March 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, CMartis said:

Is three hours walking possible? I've only played around 6 rounds but it seems like it's always been about 4 hours. That's on a cart. 

 Yeah, its possible depending on the course. Ive walked courses (as a single) in less than 3 hours. 

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This whole thread just reminds me why my regular group are "dew sweepers". We will usually get one of the first 3 tee times, so pace of play isn't an issue.

my get up and go musta got up and went..
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Of course it is, but I don't think any solution ever offered really works.

The big problem is the mix of walkers and carts (buggies), the mix of player levels, and the mix of player speeds. Some like to play very fast these days, which is a new trend IMO and causing some of the complaints.

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18 minutes ago, MrDC said:

Of course it is, but I don't think any solution ever offered really works.

The big problem is the mix of walkers and carts (buggies), the mix of player levels, and the mix of player speeds. Some like to play very fast these days, which is a new trend IMO and causing some of the complaints.

I agree that the fast play seems to be a newer trend. Maybe not the liking faster play, but the expecting to play fast. 

I think that the problem with most solutions, and why they don't work, is that they only account for one variable in the pace of play equation. Not meaning to single this one out but since it's there I'll use the example @DeadMan put out with the display clocks. Changing the clocks to 4 hours only solves the problem if player behavior is the only variable keeping the group off pace. If the average group of mid/high handicappers takes 4:15 to play the course without dawdling or taking undue delays, then changing the clock to 4 hours will only make the faster players frustrated and the slower players rushed.

The reality is, there are a mix of variables that must be accounted for. For example, if the biggest delay comes from a hole with a shot over water, maybe a drop zone could be created to speed up the average play of that hole, and thus the round. Then the clock can be speed up by the time gained with confidence that players should comfortably be able to finish in time.

I go by Pat or Patrick. Been called a lot worse so I don't mind either.
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1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

This is a great idea, but I question its implementation. I've been behind groups that are 2 holes behind the group in front of them yet on time with the pace clock (and they didn't tee off with a tee time gap at all). So, they should be asked to try to make up the gap. But the ranger won't do it because they're ahead of the clock. I also think the clocks should be set to a faster time - I think they're set to 4:15 or 4:30, but I think they should be set to 4:00 even.

If that group was two holes behind other group but on pace then they shouldnt have to speed up theyre game just cause the other group is playing fast.Why should group in front of them dictate how fast they play? Now if that group is holding up the 4sum behind them then apparently the proper pace is off on there course.

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1 minute ago, Aflighter said:

If that group was two holes behind other group but on pace then they shouldnt have to speed up theyre game just cause the other group is playing fast.Why should group in front of them dictate how fast they play? Now if that group is holding up the 4sum behind them then apparently the proper pace is off on there course.

Your proper place on the course is directly behind the group in front of you, not ahead of the group behind you. They were actually holding us up, and caused us to finish in over 4:30, despite the fact that we were below that pace until the last 3-4 holes. Ranger said he wouldn't do anything. It was frustrating, because I could see what was happening, and he wouldn't do anything because of the clocks. I'd imagine it messed up the pace of play for the rest of the day, too.

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-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

:callaway: Rogue Pro 3-PW :edel: SMS Wedges - V-Grind (48, 54, 58):edel: Putter

 :aimpoint:

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I'm confused @DeadMan, In the following post you're making the argument that clocks are poorly implemented because groups that are on or ahead of pace but have a gap in front are not pushed.

2 hours ago, DeadMan said:

This is a great idea, but I question its implementation. I've been behind groups that are 2 holes behind the group in front of them yet on time with the pace clock (and they didn't tee off with a tee time gap at all). So, they should be asked to try to make up the gap. But the ranger won't do it because they're ahead of the clock. I also think the clocks should be set to a faster time - I think they're set to 4:15 or 4:30, but I think they should be set to 4:00 even.

Then in the next post you say the group was actually off pace and caused your group to finish off pace. 

38 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Your proper place on the course is directly behind the group in front of you, not ahead of the group behind you. They were actually holding us up, and caused us to finish in over 4:30, despite the fact that we were below that pace until the last 3-4 holes. Ranger said he wouldn't do anything. It was frustrating, because I could see what was happening, and he wouldn't do anything because of the clocks. I'd imagine it messed up the pace of play for the rest of the day, too.

Did they just really tank the holes after the last display clock or something?

I go by Pat or Patrick. Been called a lot worse so I don't mind either.
Driver - Cobra Fly Z + Stiff cut to 33" with CP2 Jumbo Wrap Grip
3 Hybrid - Cobra Fly Z + 19o Lamkin Crossline Oversize
4-6 Cobra F7 ONElength Lamkin Crossline Oversize

7-GW Cobra F7 Lamkin Crossline Oversize
52, 56, and 60 Wilson Harmonized Lamkin Crossline Oversize
Putter - Testing several at the moment

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2 hours ago, MrDC said:

The big problem is the mix of walkers and carts (buggies), the mix of player levels, and the mix of player speeds.

In my limited experience the mix of carts and walkers is irrelevant.  It's what the people do when they're not getting to their ball:  talking a lot, checking their phones, taking a lot of time to select a club, taking a lot of practice swings, etc.

Tuesday evening I played (the back) 9.  I caught up with a twosome who were behind a threesome.  After playing 17, the twosome went back over to 11 and I played 18.  After my drive, I was about 145 yds from the green and had to wait for the threesome to finish putting.  After they putted out, they took off their hats and shook hands and (I shit you not) stood on the green bullshitting.  Right before I yelled "ay!" one of them looked up, saw me, and they all scampered (only word to describe how they moved) off the green.

I wanted nothing more than to put my next shot right where they had been standing.  I had the distance but pushed the shot right of the green.

Edited by krupa
  • Upvote 1

"No man goes round boasting of his vices,” he said, “except golfers." 

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41 minutes ago, 406pat said:

I'm confused @DeadMan, In the following post you're making the argument that clocks are poorly implemented because groups that are on or ahead of pace but have a gap in front are not pushed.

Then in the next post you say the group was actually off pace and caused your group to finish off pace. 

Did they just really tank the holes after the last display clock or something?

Yes, that's exactly what happened. We were ahead of pace until the last display clock, when we were even. We finished about 10-15 minutes behind their stated pace of play (4:30, I believe, so we finished in ~4:45 despite being on track until about hole 13 to finish in 4:15 or faster).

Everything was moving along well until the last couple of holes. At the last par 3, the offending group was on the green, with the entire 2 holes ahead of them open. The group behind them and my group were waiting to hit. Basically, they lost touch of the groups in front of them, played slower, and the ranger said he couldn't do anything because they were okay with the pace clocks. It was frustrating.

-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

:callaway: Rogue Pro 3-PW :edel: SMS Wedges - V-Grind (48, 54, 58):edel: Putter

 :aimpoint:

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Obviously using carts correctly is a big factor, but I still think the mix causes a pace problem even with riding groups doing it right.

I bet if a busy course went walking only the pace issues would almost evaporate, but I could be wrong.

Edited by MrDC
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18 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Yes, that's exactly what happened. We were ahead of pace until the last display clock, when we were even. We finished about 10-15 minutes behind their stated pace of play (4:30, I believe, so we finished in ~4:45 despite being on track until about hole 13 to finish in 4:15 or faster).

Everything was moving along well until the last couple of holes. At the last par 3, the offending group was on the green, with the entire 2 holes ahead of them open. The group behind them and my group were waiting to hit. Basically, they lost touch of the groups in front of them, played slower, and the ranger said he couldn't do anything because they were okay with the pace clocks. It was frustrating.

I see! That makes a lot of sense. Like you said before, big problem with the implementation. First, the ranger needs to be trained to recognize that just because someone was on pace two holes ago doesn't mean they are now.

Second, par threes are pace killers, both real and perceived. Really the last display clock should be after the last par three. Since they are the only holes with a capacity of one group max, any real delays by the first group are directly passed to the second group. Also, it's very tough to make up time on a par three, especially for a high handicapper.

Finally, I'd be willing to bet that the clocks are set assuming that all the holes take the same time to play. An example would be if the last clock is on 16 tee. I expect a round to take 4:15. Divide that by 18 gives me about 14 minutes per hole. Using that logic, 15 holes should take about 3:30 to play so that's how I set the clock. But we know that some holes take longer than others and if this course starts easy and finishes hard, the last three holes may take an hour to play, not the ~ 45 minutes suggested by averaging. That means my clock on 16 tee is more than 15 minutes off of the actual pace of the course. The averaging is telling people they are on pace when, really, they've lost at least a minute per hole so far.

I go by Pat or Patrick. Been called a lot worse so I don't mind either.
Driver - Cobra Fly Z + Stiff cut to 33" with CP2 Jumbo Wrap Grip
3 Hybrid - Cobra Fly Z + 19o Lamkin Crossline Oversize
4-6 Cobra F7 ONElength Lamkin Crossline Oversize

7-GW Cobra F7 Lamkin Crossline Oversize
52, 56, and 60 Wilson Harmonized Lamkin Crossline Oversize
Putter - Testing several at the moment

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4 hours ago, DeadMan said:

This is a great idea, but I question its implementation. I've been behind groups that are 2 holes behind the group in front of them yet on time with the pace clock (and they didn't tee off with a tee time gap at all). So, they should be asked to try to make up the gap. But the ranger won't do it because they're ahead of the clock. I also think the clocks should be set to a faster time - I think they're set to 4:15 or 4:30, but I think they should be set to 4:00 even.

When dealing with a wide variety of people and experience, you have to set an expectation that seems reasonable to the majority.  Setting unreasonable expectations just creates frustration and leads to simply ignoring the policy as unattainable.  I see you are from the Denver area, and the course I'm referring to is Foothills.  I know from many years of play that 4 hours is not unreasonable as long as everything goes well.  4 hours becomes difficult to impossible when a group experiences a few problems with lost balls or other issues which can cause slower play with casual golfers.  

In the Men's Club, we have the added inspiration of the penalty threat to keep us focused on pace of play, but casual players need a different form of reinforcement.  Putting out those clocks, and setting them to an achievable goal, is a better, more positive way of getting buy-in from the general public.  Nothing says that once players are used to playing to the clock that it can't be gradually adjusted for slightly shorter rounds as time goes on.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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59 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

When dealing with a wide variety of people and experience, you have to set an expectation that seems reasonable to the majority.  Setting unreasonable expectations just creates frustration and leads to simply ignoring the policy as unattainable.  I see you are from the Denver area, and the course I'm referring to is Foothills.  I know from many years of play that 4 hours is not unreasonable as long as everything goes well.  4 hours becomes difficult to impossible when a group experiences a few problems with lost balls or other issues which can cause slower play with casual golfers.  

In the Men's Club, we have the added inspiration of the penalty threat to keep us focused on pace of play, but casual players need a different form of reinforcement.  Putting out those clocks, and setting them to an achievable goal, is a better, more positive way of getting buy-in from the general public.  Nothing says that once players are used to playing to the clock that it can't be gradually adjusted for slightly shorter rounds as time goes on.

It actually happened at the Meadows, but yeah, same thing.

I think it's a good idea, but my experience was that they were leaning too much on the clocks. To really have a good pace of play, there has to be an effort on multiple ends - golfer buy in, course set up, and proactive course management.

I get the point you are making, but I think having a slightly more ambitious goal would help. It shouldn't be that every group will always be behind pace. It should be that the clocks will say you're ~5 minutes behind pace, which might give people the incentive to speed up.

-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

:callaway: Rogue Pro 3-PW :edel: SMS Wedges - V-Grind (48, 54, 58):edel: Putter

 :aimpoint:

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20 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Frankly, I rarely see any new or interesting suggestions concerning pace and courses full of 4-somes but there is the occasional tidbit so I keep reading the threads.

Don't know if you noticed it or not last week in Lansing, but for the first several holes I was the last to clear the green. Then I noticed my playing partners applying a little logic as to where they parked their push carts before chipping/putting. It's something I should have figured out on my own, but even something as simple as that saved some time.

  • Upvote 1

Jon

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Note: This thread is 1943 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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