I hate tailgaters

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I don't consider what the lead driver in this case to be "brake checking" per se. My sense of tailgating and brake checking is different being in a state that has much more aggressive drivers than others.

This is what I consider brake checking:

http://jalopnik.com/cops-use-road-rage-video-to-track-down-brake-checking-w-1690532761

The WRX was being an idiot with a fast car, that's brake checking to me. . .

This does happen a lot here, and I've even actually been brake checked in this manner in the middle lane. My driving habits usually follow pace with the normal left lane traffic too. So, It's not like I drive slow or anything.

If someone stepped on the brakes as in the video in front of me, I wouldn't even give it a second thought. Of course, I'd likely not careen off the road by hitting that patch of dirt in the left shoulder either.

Yeah yeah.  I don't consider it assault until bones are broken.  Punches, contusions, abrasions, black eyes, concussions, that's not assault, just a normally expected part of living life in a crowded world, nothing to complain about.  

[Lihu]

26 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Yeah yeah.  I don't consider it assault until bones are broken.  Punches, contusions, abrasions, black eyes, concussions, that's not assault, just a normally expected part of living life in a crowded world, nothing to complain about.  

The issue I have is the lead driver didn't seem to be in control of his own vehicle in a manner consistent with someone capable of assault by brake check. I'd have to agree with this former police officer who answered on Quora. . .

Quote

Justin Freeman, Former Police Officer

Written 24 Aug 2011

 

This is technically determined by the involved parties' insurance agencies, who can assess "percentages of fault" based on the dynamics of the MVA. As a police officer, though, if you rear-end someone on the highway, I'm probably going to write you a ticket for following too closely. Most municipal and state codes are worded in such a way that the expectation falls upon the second driver to follow at a sufficient distance so as to allow time to avoid a collision with the car ahead no matter the circumstances. Thus, fault will be worked out by your agents, but I'd have probable cause to believe you were following too closely behind, since the other driver was able to brake check you into an accident.

https://www.quora.com/If-an-accident-occurs-due-to-someone-brake-checking-you-on-the-highway-who-is-at-fault

Most of the responses were similar. . .

[DaveP043]

Just now, Lihu said:

The issue I have is the lead driver didn't seem to be in control of his own vehicle in a manner consistent with someone capable of assault by brake check. I'd have to agree with this former police officer who answered on Quora. . .

https://www.quora.com/If-an-accident-occurs-due-to-someone-brake-checking-you-on-the-highway-who-is-at-fault

Most of the responses were similar. . .

You continue to talk about legality, and ignore any issue with right and wrong.  The lead driver's actions turned a bad situation worse, and put a number of people behind him in more danger than they were already.  That's simply wrong, whether it was illegal or not.  He didn't have to roll down his window, swerve between lanes, or throw bottles to be wrong.  I'll ask one last time, since you haven't answered yet, if you were the lead driver, you saw the accident in your rear-view, and you learned later that 3 people had died, could you sleep well?

[Lihu]

Just now, DaveP043 said:

You continue to talk about legality, and ignore any issue with right and wrong.  The lead driver's actions turned a bad situation worse, and put a number of people behind him in more danger than they were already.  That's simply wrong, whether it was illegal or not.  He didn't have to roll down his window, swerve between lanes, or throw bottles to be wrong.  I'll ask one last time, since you haven't answered yet, if you were the lead driver, you saw the accident in your rear-view, and you learned later that 3 people had died, could you sleep well?

Okay, I agree that brake checking is bad if you are in control of the situation. Of course, that's wrong.

However, it looked like when the rear car came up really close suddenly, that's when the lead driver put his foot on the brake. Then signaled to turn right and slow down even more. For all we know, it could have been just a reaction because his second move was to signal and move to the right? No idea. I know in some places people are pretty conservative at driving and this doesn't happen all that much. Was that wrong? IDK, I have trouble thinking that he did anything wrong?

OTOH, where I live, traffic stops dead from anywhere up to 60mph around here all the time, so I see that kind of closeness all the time. What the lead car did also happens a lot around here. It's not called assault or brake check in LA, it's called running into "traffic".

[woodzie264]

totally surprised this thread is still going....I don't anyone is going to change the other's mind.

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, woodzie264 said:

totally surprised this thread is still going....I don't anyone is going to change the other's mind.

Of course not, we all live in very different regions.

[woodzie264]

Just now, Lihu said:

Of course not, we all live in very different regions.

I don't think it has anything to do with locale, but ok

[Lihu]

Just now, woodzie264 said:

I don't think it has anything to do with locale, but ok

It has to do with traffic conditions and what you are used to, but okay. If you think otherwise?

[ScouseJohnny]

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It has to do with traffic conditions and what you are used to, but okay. If you think otherwise?

Heck, I thought Boston was scary - but at least there the ethos seems to be keep going as fast as possible, at all costs, and yield to no-one! If L.A. is the town of sudden, rapid deceleration, I'm taking an Uber when I visit your city!

Edited March 27, 2017 by ScouseJohnny

[Lihu]

Just now, ScouseJohnny said:

Heck, I thought Boston was scary - but at least there the ethos seems to be keep going as fast as possible, at all costs, and yield to no-one! If L.A. is the town of sudden, rapid deceleration, I'm taking an Uber if I visit your city...

I've driven in Boston too, in fact, just 5 months ago and last summer! The difference is people tend to weave around other people when stuck in traffic, just like China 5 years ago. They don't drive all that fast there. In that sense they're pretty safe and sane drivers. OTOH, the average IQ is pretty high in Boston from all the smart teachers and students living there.

LA during rush hour is pretty bad. Worse than anything in MD even near the DC/VA borders. I'm on vacation when driving my dad's Acura in MD/VA/DC traffic, and driving is really easy there.

[JonMA1]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

You continue to talk about legality, and ignore any issue with right and wrong.  The lead driver's actions turned a bad situation worse, and put a number of people behind him in more danger than they were already.  That's simply wrong, whether it was illegal or not.  He didn't have to roll down his window, swerve between lanes, or throw bottles to be wrong.  I'll ask one last time, since you haven't answered yet, if you were the lead driver, you saw the accident in your rear-view, and you learned later that 3 people had died, could you sleep well?

I don't disagree with you very often Dave, but it's hard for me to blame anyone but a tailgater when an accident happens. And for the record, I've been the guy following too close (not in anger, just because of traffic flow) as well as the guy lightly tapping my brakes for someone to back off.

Traffic is dangerous even when no one is doing anything wrong. Tailgating just adds another layer of it. Whether the lead driver purposely brake checks, overreacts out of nervousness, or has to brake for some other reason, the driver tailgating is the main reason for anything that results from his choice to ride someone's ass. And I'd tell you the same thing if I was the one tailgating.

It's just as easy to argue that what happened in that video might have prevented future accidents.

If the lead driver in that video slammed on his brakes with the intention of causing an accident, you're correct -  he crossed the line into recklessness. But tapping your brake lights when someone is on your bumper should not be an issue.

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer anyway. Could I sleep at night if I was in an accident where 3 people died? Not even if I was doing everything right. I'd always question whether there was something I could have done differently.

[iacas]

@Lihu, dude, please stop justifying the behavior of the brake checker in the video, or the behavior of any brake checkers anywhere. This is not an example of what is in that DMV document.

And please don't drive near me.

[jsgolfer]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

@Lihu, dude, please stop justifying the behavior of the brake checker in the video, or the behavior of any brake checkers anywhere. This is not an example of what is in that DMV document.

And please don't drive near me.

+1

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

@Lihu, dude, please stop justifying the behavior of the brake checker in the video, or the behavior of any brake checkers anywhere. This is not an example of what is in that DMV document.

 

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

Okay, I agree that brake checking is bad if you are in control of the situation. Of course, that's wrong.

However, it looked like when the rear car came up really close suddenly, that's when the lead driver put his foot on the brake. Then signaled to turn right and slow down even more. For all we know, it could have been just a reaction because his second move was to signal and move to the right? No idea. I know in some places people are pretty conservative at driving and this doesn't happen all that much. Was that wrong? IDK, I have trouble thinking that he did anything wrong?

OTOH, where I live, traffic stops dead from anywhere up to 60mph around here all the time, so I see that kind of closeness all the time. What the lead car did also happens a lot around here. It's not called assault or brake check in LA, it's called running into "traffic".

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

And please don't drive near me.

Okay, you got it.

[colin007]

12 hours ago, Lihu said:

 

Sorry to anyone who thinks that "brake checking" was wrong, but it was the tailgating that caused the accident. 

 

I'm still amazed that some people think the accident was caused by the "brake check"?

Question - would the accident have happened if the lead driver hadn't brake checked?

10 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't care who's legally at fault, if the tailgater runs into me after I hit by brakes, I lose out.  My car is damaged, perhaps I'm injured, that's a loss in my books, no matter who pays for it.  And if the tailgater loses control, maybe he rolls his car a couple of times and ends up in the hospital, maybe he hits someone else.  I still have to look myself in the face, act like an adult, and accept some responsibility.  I'm not talking legal liability, but still I'm going to feel guilt if someone is injured in part because of something I did.

Good post is good.

[Lihu]

On 3/27/2017 at 6:38 PM, colin007 said:

Question - would the accident have happened if the lead driver hadn't brake checked?

Would the accident have happened if the tailgater wasn't that close?

You never know who's going to brake check with or without a "valid" reason, so don't tailgate.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

Would the accident have happened if the tailgater wasn't that close?

You never know who's going to brake check with or without a "valid" reason, so don't tailgate.

I don't remember a single post in this thread that excuses the tailgater, everyone agrees that he was in the wrong, that he created a dangerous situation.  The differences of opinion seem to come with regard to the lead driver, and whether his action (stepping on the brake pedal) had anything to do with the tailgater losing control, thus putting a significant number of other people in more peril than they already were in.  You would give him a pass, I think he bears at least a little responsibility.  I'm not trying to argue the point any more, I think that's been done to death.  I'm merely trying to identify where the disagreement comes from.

[Kalnoky]

On 3/24/2017 at 5:18 AM, DaveP043 said:

I have very little sympathy for the driver who's now sitting in the median, wondering what happened

On the other hand, I see many drivers cruising along in the "fast" lane without passing anyone in the US.  

They are proposing a new law here in Oregon which would make "camping" in the left lane illegal, and I'm in favor of it. If you are not passing, then please get over. Pretty simple.

On the other hand, I feel glee knowing that a* in the median probably peed his pants. I mean, I'm glad nobody got hurt and I don't condone the methodology, but I do feel glee. 

For 5 years now I have driven a very similar highway to work, about 22 miles each way. I have seen some spectacular accidents and gruesome deaths; things I wish I could unsee. One was so gory the first cops to arrive tried desperately (in vain) to form a barrier around the bodies, kind of like a free kick in soccer. There was a pregnant woman among the deceased and I will never forget it. 

Aggressive driving and impatience was at the root cause of every traffic fatality I have witnessed.