Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[JonMA1]

45 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

He has company: http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19077633/phil-mickelson-says-lexi-thompson-awarded-ana-inspiration-trophy

Quote

"I know a number of guys on (The PGA Tour) that are loose with how they mark the ball and have not been called on it,'' Mickelson said. "They will move the ball two, three inches in front of their mark, and this is an intentional way to get it out of any type of impression and so forth and I think that kind of stuff needs to stop.

"But I think it should be handled within the tour. I think that the tour should go to those players and say, "Look, we've noticed you've been a little lax in how precise you've been in marking the ball. We'd like you to be a little bit better at it,'' and see if that doesn't just kind of fix the thing.

If officials can "notice" something, or if as Phil says, they move it "two, three inches" then be consistent and give them all penalties.

Keep it black and white and enforce the rules. If the rules need to change, fine... change them. But don't warn players that "we're watchin' so you'd better behave".

Sorry Phil, that's lame.

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

No one is even considering giving the person the benefit of the doubt.

Really, no one? So everyone who thinks a rule was broken thinks Lexi is a cheater?

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

This is validating my dislike for people.

At least we agree on something.

[Jack Watson]

Signing an incorrect card should be dq.  Period.

An amendment made to the card by the governing body (assessing a penalty) is very different from writing 4 instead of 5.  Writing the wrong number is cheating.

Big difference between cheating and breaking a rule

 

 

[Shorty]

1 hour ago, Lastpick said:

I have watched the video and agree that it appears that she did not remark her ball exactly, but the video is inconclusive.  

This is all getting very old and I am sure that the thread has pretty much worn itself out, but, without wanting to sound like a complete jerk, If you think that the video is inconclusive my guess is that you are seeing what you (we all, in all probability) would prefer to see rather than what was in the estimation of any non- partisan golf supporter, a blatant example of the "little" cheat that is in essence worse than the big "kick it out of the woods" cheat. Notice how she even moved it even more to the side at first in an attempt to conceal what she did? 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Shorty

[No Mulligans]

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Signing an incorrect card should be dq.  Period.

An amendment made to the card by the governing body (assessing a penalty) is very different from writing 4 instead of 5.  Writing the wrong number is cheating.

Big difference between cheating and breaking a rule

 

 

I ended up a round last Saturday and lost by a stroke and consequently paid for breakfast (our equivalent of signing a card I suppose).  After looking at my round later that day on GameGolf I realized I incorrectly wrote down my score on hole 5 as a bogey but I actually had a par.  My score was reported one stroke higher than what I actually shot.  There is no way that was intentional.  Was that cheating?

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by No Mulligans

[Hategolf]

A lame infraction caught by a non official or player that affects so many people, players, fans, the institution and such. The truth is that this bs causes more harm than good to the sport. 

There is really nothing to admire in this situation. Even if you are a purist..this whole thing is just ridiculous. 

 

[1badbadger]

10 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Signing an incorrect card should be dq.  Period.

An amendment made to the card by the governing body (assessing a penalty) is very different from writing 4 instead of 5.  Writing the wrong number is cheating.

Big difference between cheating and breaking a rule

 

 

The player doesn't keep their own score at the professional level...their playing partner keeps their score.  If a 4 is written down instead of a 5 it's because someone else wrote it.  It's up to the player to catch it before the scorecard is signed.  

Keep in mind, if the total score is not correct, it doesn't matter...only the score for each hole has to be correct.  If the score for each hole is right, but it's added up wrong there is no penalty.  This is the responsibility of the tournament committee.

[Shorty]

11 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

I ended up a round last Saturday and lost by a stroke and consequently paid for breakfast (our equivalent of signing a card I suppose).  After looking at my round later that day on GameGolf I realized I incorrectly wrote down my score on hole 5 as a bogey but I actually had a par.  My score was reported one stroke higher than what I actually shot.  There is no way that was intentional.  Was that cheating?

 

No. Not cheating at all. And even if you had written down a 4 when you had a 5 I would not call it cheating. 

BUT......if you erased a 5 and wrote down a 4 when you knew you'd had 5, that would be.

My point is that what Lexi did can not be done unknowingly or accidentally. You mark your ball and you know where the hole is - especially on a 2 foot putt (which of course is six inches to some of her supporters). You can't accidentally move it between half an inch and an inch to the left. 

Imagine if the video had shown a Korean player cheating  doing EXACTLY what Lexi did in a week's time and that that player had beaten Lexi by a shot

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Shorty

[70sSanO]

Keep in mind, all professional sports are entertainment.  Maybe people think what Phil said is lame and a rule is a rule, but most governing bodies will take into consideration how tossing out any number of penalties a round impacts the perception of the game.

People will just stop watching any sport if results change after the fact, whether right or wrong.  There is a lot if money involved in professional sports and as much as people want to uphold the integrity of the game, which is admirable, it is just not a realistic view of how the world works.  I think it is naive to think otherwise.

Whether it was fair to Lexi or not, either way, that is life.  People will voice their approval or disapproval in their support of the product.

John

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by 70sSanO

[David in FL]

15 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

I ended up a round last Saturday and lost by a stroke and consequently paid for breakfast (our equivalent of signing a card I suppose).  After looking at my round later that day on GameGolf I realized I incorrectly wrote down my score on hole 5 as a bogey but I actually had a par.  My score was reported one stroke higher than what I actually shot.  There is no way that was intentional.  Was that cheating?

 

There's no penalty for signing for a score higher than you actually made.  Sounds like that's exactly what you did in buying breakfast!  

Edited April 4, 2017 by David in FL

[dchoye]

Signing incorrect scorecard is no longer a DQ  since 2016 due to Tiger.  Some of you want to live in the past 

There will be even better changes to the rules in 2019 to speed up play and reduce overly harsh penalties 

 

[70sSanO]

One other point, if this was done by someone who is going to miss the cut on Friday by a dozen strokes, do you really think the LPGA or PGA would assess a penalty on Saturday?  I don't know.  I'm thinking they might overlook it.  Maybe there are examples if this.

But if they did not assess a penalty, it does throw the "a rule is a rule" mentality out the window.  It would be interesting.

John

[iacas]

4 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

Always mark the ball first like Dave mentioned, then move the mark!

Not necessary… but advisable. You just have to repeat the process in reverse. If that means using your ball, go for it.

4 hours ago, RH31 said:

I'm saying that under the current guidelines, if the same infraction were to occur in the final round and officials were notified and couldn't/wouldn't rule on the infraction before the tournament is deemed "over", then the punishment one receives for a 1st, 2nd or 3rd round infraction is obviously greater than no penalty for a 4th round infraction. So the same infraction, committed later in the tournament, could be "allowed". Not good. 

There's only so much you can do sometimes.

The current rule seems to me to be the most practical and realistic: the competition closes when the 72 holes are done. Make the cut-off the end of the day and you're still going to have infractions on the first hole in morning rounds getting more time than infractions on the last holes of afternoon rounds, etc.

[Jack Watson]

26 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

I ended up a round last Saturday and lost by a stroke and consequently paid for breakfast (our equivalent of signing a card I suppose).  After looking at my round later that day on GameGolf I realized I incorrectly wrote down my score on hole 5 as a bogey but I actually had a par.  My score was reported one stroke higher than what I actually shot.  There is no way that was intentional.  Was that cheating?

 

No but under my current (softened for Internet use) stance if it was a tournament and it was found or you brought it to the governing body's attention you would be disqualified you signed an incorrect card.  No mercy for writing the wrong number.

@IACAS

In response to your post in the other thread if the ball kicking was found to have been done in the final round after the tournament was closed there's no recourse right?  Maybe ban the golfer I guess.  Take the status away.

But that's off topic from what I wanted to say in my new stance which is that all that needs to be done is keep everything the same except add a line or two into the rules that penalties assessed by the governing body AFTER the player has completed the round do not constitute a player signing the scorecard wrong.

Add the penalty retroactively found in the interest of truth and all that has been said and allow everyone and anyone and God to add their input and return signing the card wrong to dq.

So for Lexi?  Two shot penalty  score on whatever hole it was amended to reflect the penalty.

My soft stance is change nothing but these things.

 

 

 

[JonMA1]

6 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

Keep in mind, all professional sports are entertainment.  Maybe people think what Phil said is lame and a rule is a rule, but most governing bodies will take into consideration how tossing out any number of penalties a round impacts the perception of the game.

People will just stop watching any sport if results change after the fact, whether right or wrong.  There is a lot if money involved in professional sports and as much as people want to uphold the integrity of the game, which is admirable, it is just not a realistic view of how the world works.  I think it is naive to think otherwise.

Whether it was fair to Lexi or not, either way, that is life.  People will voice their approval or disapproval in their support of the product.

John

 

Good post John.

I don't hold the people involved with professional sports to any higher standard than any other industry or business. I simply enjoy watching the best players in the world do things I can't even come close to doing. Beyond that, I care little about who wins or loses a tournament, who has cheated or who has been wronged by officials.

If what Phil claims is true, then the sport is corrupt at some level, and I suppose if anything will turn a lot of viewers away, it might be that. If warning the players will help, great.

Assessing a penalty on a popular player won't keep me from watching.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

In response to your post in the other thread if the ball kicking was found to have been done in the final round after the tournament was closed there's no recourse right?  Maybe ban the golfer I guess.  Take the status away.

Ban the golfer from what? Take what status away? That type of response implies that you think the Rules of Golf apply only to the professional tours or something. This rule applies to all levels of golf. A lot of the time, there's nothing to "ban" them from and the golfer has no "status" to take away.

Hence the two-stroke penalty, or the DQ penalty in other cases.

11 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

But that's off topic from what I wanted to say in my new stance which is that all that needs to be done is keep everything the same except add a line or two into the rules that penalties assessed by the governing body AFTER the player has completed the round do not constitute a player signing the scorecard wrong.

Why would they (the ruling bodies) do that? The player DID sign an incorrect scorecard. The incurred a penalty they did not include in their score for the hole.

[Jack Watson]

Still dq,  they know what they shot less retroactively applied penalties

Just now, iacas said:

Ban the golfer from what? Take what status away? That type of response implies that you think the Rules of Golf apply only to the professional tours or something. This rule applies to all levels of golf. A lot of the time, there's nothing to "ban" them from and the golfer has no "status" to take away.

Hence the two-stroke penalty, or the DQ penalty in other cases.

Why would they (the ruling bodies) do that? The player DID sign an incorrect scorecard. The incurred a penalty they did not include in their score for the hole.

In fact they did not sign an incorrect card.  A retroactive penalty of some sort was applied to their score.  

Under the current rules a retroactive penalty is punished more severely than a penalty for the same offense not retroactive.

The players card gets amended but to the best of the players knowledge it was correct at the time they signed it

why punish them for that?  Why penalize the same offense with differing severity based on WHEN the penalty was assessed?

 

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

In fact they did not sign an incorrect card.  A retroactive penalty of some sort was applied to their score.

They did. I'll say this for the last time, and then honestly @Jack Watson, if you can't get it here, your ongoing participation in these threads will be limited.

If you incur a penalty, your score for that hole includes that penalty, right then. Whether you include it or not does not change the fact that you actually scored a 6 (or whatever). There is a difference between when a penalty is "incurred" and when it is "applied," but the rules for your scorecard care about when the penalty was incurred.

10 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Under the current rules a retroactive penalty is punished more severely than a penalty for the same offense not retroactive.

Because two rules are broken in the former case. If the player includes the penalty when they sign their scorecard, they've only violated that one rule (whatever lead to the penalty).

10 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The players card gets amended but to the best of the players knowledge it was correct at the time they signed it, why punish them for that? Why penalize the same offense with differing severity based on WHEN the penalty was assessed?

For the last time… Because it's the player's responsibility to know and follow the rules. Ignorance is not a valid excuse. They signed and submitted an incorrect scorecard.

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

I ended up a round last Saturday and lost by a stroke and consequently paid for breakfast (our equivalent of signing a card I suppose).  After looking at my round later that day on GameGolf I realized I incorrectly wrote down my score on hole 5 as a bogey but I actually had a par.  My score was reported one stroke higher than what I actually shot.  There is no way that was intentional.  Was that cheating?

 

35 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

No but under my current (softened for Internet use) stance if it was a tournament and it was found or you brought it to the governing body's attention you would be disqualified you signed an incorrect card.  No mercy for writing the wrong number.

@Jack Watson, that would not result in DQ.  With all of your commenting on this thread, have you even read rule 6-6d?

Quote

d. Wrong Score for Hole 

The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he is disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands.