Vanishing Loft Disease

[billchao]

Some others have touched on it, but part of the reason that static lofts are lower now is because the clubhead designs have changed to launch the ball higher. If the club designers left the traditional lofts on the clubs, they would hit the ball too high.

This is why muscleback irons still have fairly traditional lofts, because they lack these design elements. When I say traditional though, I'm not talking about 50° PWs like from the 80s, but most blade iron sets have a 47° PW which is pretty much in line with most iron sets from ten years ago.

[onthehunt526]

I used to complain about it, too. The vertical CG is lower than it used to be in game-improvement irons sure. But you also have to remember in the 1970s, there really wasn't game-improvement clubs around. So static loft was the only way to help get the ball in the air. Now with perimeter and extreme weighting, cg is a factor, so static loft has to be lower.

It was stated before as it is, static loft is only one of the factors, that manufactures consider when designing clubs.

But as we've progressed onto bigger and better things, player's irons static lofts in the last 15 years anyway... Unchanged... the original poster's RM Midsize irons, have the same exact static lofts as the new Wilson Staff FG Tour V6... they don't make a 2-iron or Sand Wedge with this set but you'll find 3-iron through pitching wedge to have exactly the same static lofts.

Edited June 13, 2017 by onthehunt526
my phone was being difficult.

[ERLoft]

I'm picking up my new clubs today and they're going to be about 2* stronger than my last clubs.  I'd agree with previous posters that this is a result of improved weight distribution in game improvement clubs to increase launch angle on lower lofts.  However, not everything has gone this way.  In particular, I think that drivers have more loft than 20 years ago.  I know I had a Titleist driver at about 7* of loft back in the mid 90's.  Now I have an M1 with a 10.5 head and generally will have a little more loft added to it through adjustments.

I still have a TaylorMade Tour Preferred CB 3i that wasn't in my bag when it was stolen.  I also still have an old DCI 962 2i.  If I'm playing somewhere pretty windy, I'll bring one or both of these in place of a hybrid to help keep the ball down.  On calmer days, I buck the hybrid trend and carry a 1, 3 & 5w, then 3i through PW with a GW, SW, LW.  Generally my buddies and I play from the white tees - we're not masochists - so I'd much rather have 4 wedges to allow for more full swing scoring club approach shots.

[Midpack]

29 minutes ago, ERLoft said:

I still have a TaylorMade Tour Preferred CB 3i that wasn't in my bag when it was stolen.  I also still have an old DCI 962 2i.  If I'm playing somewhere pretty windy, I'll bring one or both of these in place of a hybrid to help keep the ball down.  On calmer days, I buck the hybrid trend and carry a 1, 3 & 5w, then 3i through PW with a GW, SW, LW.  Generally my buddies and I play from the white tees - we're not masochists - so I'd much rather have 4 wedges to allow for more full swing scoring club approach shots.

Not arguing or disagreeing at all. But it rubs me the wrong way that I used to buy a set of "metal" woods, a set of irons (2-SW) and a putter and that's all I needed. Right or wrong, I like matched sets - shafts, swing weights, even look, etc. Old preferences...

Now I'm supposed to buy a driver, fairway wood(s), hybrid(s), irons, up to 4 wedges and a putter - with more markup than ever. If the trend continues, one day we'll buy every club individually?

[/rant-whining] maybe...

And I will try some of the newer irons and hybrids this season, you've all convinced me.

I also have a chicken and the egg problem, as I don't want to buy hybrids and irons only to find I hate them. But I won't be satisfied just hitting into nets or watching launch monitors either. And I haven't made new golf friends yet after a 15 year layoff. But I'll get there...

Edited June 13, 2017 by Midpack

[ERLoft]

Buying individual clubs - or at the least, individual clubheads - isn't a bad idea at all.  My last set of irons used Tour Preferred CB (Cavity Back) irons for 3-6, then a MC (Muscle Cavity) for the 7 and MB (Muscle Back) for the 8-PW.  Sure, all were the same brand and all had the same shafts, were set up for the same swingweight, etc., but were still different clubs because I wanted more forgiveness and higher flight on the long irons, but more control, workability and lower flight on the scoring irons. Quite a few club sets are like this out of the box - my new M1 irons are similar in this respect, as the Speed Pockets are present from 3 through 7, but aren't there in the 8-PW.

[MuniGrit]

Distance sells. 90 percent of talk with amateurs starts with "This person/Club/Ball" is SO LOOOOOONG! 

[Midpack]

14 minutes ago, MuniGrit said:

Distance sells. 90 percent of talk with amateurs starts with "This person/Club/Ball" is SO LOOOOOONG! 

At least I learned to ignore that long ago. I just want consistent distances/gaps, another 5 yards is near the bottom of my list for buying clubs. Might help a little with a driver, but matters not to me with any other club. YMMV

Edited June 13, 2017 by Midpack

[Groucho Valentine]

I play Titleist AP2's and they are lofted similar to clubs from the 90s if you're by the chart in the first post. They have all the new fangled tech inside. But they also launch moon balls if you're playing the wrong shaft for your swing in them so..

[onthehunt526]

6 hours ago, Midpack said:

Not arguing or disagreeing at all. But it rubs me the wrong way that I used to buy a set of "metal" woods, a set of irons (2-SW) and a putter and that's all I needed. Right or wrong, I like matched sets - shafts, swing weights, even look, etc. Old preferences...

Now I'm supposed to buy a driver, fairway wood(s), hybrid(s), irons, up to 4 wedges and a putter - with more markup than ever. If the trend continues, one day we'll buy every club individually?

[/rant-whining] maybe...

And I will try some of the newer irons and hybrids this season, you've all convinced me.

I also have a chicken and the egg problem, as I don't want to buy hybrids and irons only to find I hate them. But I won't be satisfied just hitting into nets or watching launch monitors either. And I haven't made new golf friends yet after a 15 year layoff. But I'll get there...

Most OEMs already allow you to buy irons individually at the set's price divided by 8.

When it comes to irons, the number stamped on the bottom or it's static loft, doesn't matter. What matters, is knowing YOUR distances. If your 150 yard club is stamped 7 on the bottom, and mine is stamped 8, who cares? 

Yes, the newer irons go further than ones manufactured in the previous four decades. 

As stated before static loft, is only one component of launch. The specific number stamped on the head is the same for one reason, total clubhead weight. The total weight of the clubhead has not changed, just where the majority of the weight is.

One thing @Midpack did not mention is total club length is longer, across the board from Driver through the Wedges, why? The materials are lighter so they have to be for the swingweight to balance. Even steel shafts are 10-15g lighter than their predecessors.

What was it Newton said? "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" Well that's as basic as I can get with my physics background. Which is all it is, OEMs are lowering CG, so the static loft has to be lowered. The shafts are lighter, we have to make the shaft longer.

That's as simple as I can put it.

[Midpack]

7 hours ago, ERLoft said:

My last set of irons used Tour Preferred CB (Cavity Back) irons for 3-6, then a MC (Muscle Cavity) for the 7 and MB (Muscle Back) for the 8-PW. Quite a few club sets are like this out of the box - my new M1 irons are similar in this respect, as the Speed Pockets are present from 3 through 7, but aren't there in the 8-PW.

I've seen a few sets that transition from cavity back to more blade like higher irons, and that's appealing to me, though I still have a lot to learn before I buy anything. Unfortunately I didn't note the brands/models, I will now...

Edited June 13, 2017 by Midpack

[Missouri Swede]

16 hours ago, Midpack said:

I've seen a few sets that transition from cavity back to more blade like higher irons, and that's appealing to me, though I still have a lot to learn before I buy anything. Unfortunately I didn't note the brands/models, I will now...

And some sets are built with hybrids instead of the longer irons.  Cobra, Taylor made, callaway, for example.

[Kloeshuman]

On 6/13/2017 at 7:58 PM, Midpack said:

I've seen a few sets that transition from cavity back to more blade like higher irons, and that's appealing to me, though I still have a lot to learn before I buy anything. Unfortunately I didn't note the brands/models, I will now...

Here's a thought, if you are so worried about the loft in today's clubs why not just play with your old set? Or buy a set off eBay if you no longer have them. Plenty of older clubs still around and much cheaper then today's clubs. All this time spent worrying and complaining could be time on the coarse ! Times have changed , just my opinion 

[onthehunt526]

On 6/17/2017 at 4:10 PM, Kloeshuman said:

Here's a thought, if you are so worried about the loft in today's clubs why not just play with your old set? Or buy a set off eBay if you no longer have them. Plenty of older clubs still around and much cheaper then today's clubs. All this time spent worrying and complaining could be time on the coarse ! Times have changed , just my opinion 

Like I said before I used to complain about it too. But it is mostly in SGI and GI designs where the static loft has disappeared. Player's designs the static lofts have not creeped as much... In reality about zero in the last 10-15 years. 

In blade irons traditionally a PW was between 50-52°. But you couldn't do much with CG in a blade. Now with some perimeter weighting is forged offerings the lofts dropped from 52 to about 47°.

@Midpack if you look at most of the irons in the player's iron category, most 6-irons are 30-32° and most PW are 46°-47°. 

Your RM's have a 31° 6i and 47° PW. The lofts haven't changed much in your case.

I actually almost went with a set of Wilson Staff FG Tour F5 irons, last year, but decided against it.

Hey look, I actually play irons with stronger lofts. My 6i is 28° (standard loft) my PW is 44° (1° strong). I've adjusted. I hit my 44° PW at the same trajectory as my V-Blade 49° PW. 

Let the engineers squabble about their 42° PW that goes 10 yards farther than their previous 45° model. The end of this lower and lower lofts in the irons though. 

It actually has been proven by several golf club engineers, that the lowest effective loft an iron can really be an still perform it's purpose is 15° off the turf... (Yes they've made 11 to 13° models) but for the average player, the Tom Wishon rule applies. 24/38. An average player cannot consistently hit an iron with less than 24° of loft and is longer than 38 inches. So goodbye M2 '16 4 and 5 irons.

Yes it's a little on the ridiculous side in SGI irons... In reality I don't believe a 6i needs to be less than 28° or a PW should ever be less than 45° designed period ever.

In my opinion some of these companies are lowering the CG and moving it to the rear so much, they are lowering the loft too much. 

I'm ok with it to a degree. Now they are just overdoing it in GI and SGI clubs. If you are going to make your PW 42°, make that 42° PW a 10i instead of a PW and have a 46° PW.

But the OEMs are overdoing it a little. They have obsoleted the 2 and 3 iron and the 4-iron is dying.

[Shindig]

3 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I'm ok with it to a degree. Now they are just overdoing it in GI and SGI clubs. If you are going to make your PW 42°, make that 42° PW a 10i instead of a PW and have a 46° PW.

I approve of the bolded phrasing. 

I'll also add there are some sets -- I can't think of any offhand but I know they're out there -- that now just put the loft on the club.  That'd really appeal to me.  I don't care what you call my 42 degree club, I hit it a particular distance and it does something.  The only issue at the moment would be what to call it in Game Golf, which I'm sure could be easily overcome.

[David in FL]

6 hours ago, Shindig said:

I approve of the bolded phrasing. 

I'll also add there are some sets -- I can't think of any offhand but I know they're out there -- that now just put the loft on the club.  That'd really appeal to me.  I don't care what you call my 42 degree club, I hit it a particular distance and it does something.  The only issue at the moment would be what to call it in Game Golf, which I'm sure could be easily overcome.

I really don't know why anyone even cares about this, unless of course they're somehow interested in the "manly" pastime of comparing their length against that of someone else.

 You can easily reverse your entire post and say that "I don't care what degree my 8 iron is.  I hit it a particular distance and it does something.  Plus, you know what to call it in Game Golf...  

[Midpack]

I've learned a lot about the evolution of loft vs club number on this thread and others, thanks for that. I am most likely going to buy a set of GI irons over the next few weeks. Unfortunately I will have to mentally change what club I use for each distance, and my full swing range will move out longer by 10-20 yards which will force me to consider buying more wedges. And there is no reason club makers couldn't have left loft vs club number as it was, and there is no question they did it to appeal to our "manly" vanity. But onward and upward, moving on.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Midpack said:

And there is no reason club makers couldn't have left loft vs club number as it was, and there is no question they did it to appeal to our "manly" vanity. But onward and upward, moving on.

There's no technical reason, perhaps, but they're all interested in making money, and marketing factors are VERY valid reasons to do things.  If they weren't making money, they wouldn't be making clubs either, and our choices would be much more restricted.

[Midpack]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

There's no technical reason, perhaps, but they're all interested in making money, and marketing factors are VERY valid reasons to do things.  If they weren't making money, they wouldn't be making clubs either, and our choices would be much more restricted.

No question. So one day an iron with a 20 degree loft will be stamped as a 6 iron, and there will be 6 wedges...

Edited June 19, 2017 by Midpack