Vanishing Loft Disease

[Midpack]

As a player who started playing golf more than 50 years ago and having just come back to the game after a 15 year layoff, the loft changes are very disappointing to me, just dishonest on the part of clubmakers (and vain players?). I know it's well known, but it was a shock to me coming back after 15 years not following golf. But I'm probably just a curmudgeon...

Players have been induced to buy new clubs 'because the other guys are hitting their 6-iron further than my 5-iron.' The (former) long irons have become unhittable, so many have resorted to hybrids. And where a PW & SW is all anyone needed, now there are up to 4 wedges, mostly because of unnecessary loft changes. But again, I'm a curmudgeon...

Edited June 13, 2017 by Midpack

[boogielicious]

17 minutes ago, Midpack said:

As a player who started playing golf more than 50 years ago and having just come back to the game after a 15 year layoff, the loft changes are very disappointing to me, just dishonest on the part of clubmakers (and vain players?). I know it's well known, but it was a shock to me coming back after 15 years not following golf. But I'm probably just a curmudgeon...

Players have been induced to buy new clubs 'because the other guys are hitting their 6-iron further than my 5-iron.' The (former) long irons have become unhittable, so many have resorted to hybrids. And where a PW & SW is all anyone needed, now there are up to 4 wedges, mostly because of unnecessary loft changes. But again, I'm a curmudgeon...

I think you are misinterpreting static loft. Static loft is only one part of club design. Launch angle, ball speed, spin, etc. all factor in to selecting the loft of the set to maximize distance. Clubs now have lower static loft because they launch higher and create more ball speed that muscle back irons.

From this review: AP1 Review

Quote

It is misconception that companies lower the club loft to get more distance through lower launch and more roll out. If a head has a lower center of gravity and launches higher, companies like Titleist lower the head loft to get the same optimum launch angle. More distance comes from faster ball speeds, which will give more carry.

 

[Midpack]

Boogie: I don't claim to know better, I am still trying to figure out what's real and what's marketing nonsense these days with club(maker)s. And I have read and understand the launch angle factor. But why have the 2-iron and 3-iron basically disappeared (I realize the 3 can be bought separately from some clubmakers, but not all)? And some iron sets start at 5-iron these days (will the 4-iron become obsolete next?), leaving the player no option between "woods" and irons except for hybrids?

Edited June 13, 2017 by Midpack

[jsgolfer]

Just now, Midpack said:

Boogie: I don't claim to know better, I am still trying to figure out what's real and what's marketing nonsense these days with club(maker)s. And I have read and understand the launch angle factor. But why have the 2-iron and 3-iron basically disappeared (I realize the 3 can be bought separately from some clubmakers, but not all)? And some iron sets start at 5-iron these days (will the 4-iron become obsolete next?), leaving the player no option between "woods" and irons except for hybrids?

Because they are hard to hit consistently well and hybrids are just much easier to hit up in the air and way more forgiving for the majority of players.    

[mcanadiens]

Wouldn't claim to be an expert here, but it seems like its a little bit of technology and a whole lot of marketing.

I'd guess that the smart guys (like my fellow TSTers) make educated decisions when they buy clubs. They have a budget. They go to their club fitters. They test out everything. It's the other people that make impulse buys who get screwed. Those are the same guys that loose Pro V1s on the executive course.

One of my buddies is a bit that way. Popped $1,200 for clubs out of a big box. Loved them for a week and then decided the shafts were too short. Same guy bags on me for playing my ancient clubs.

[Midpack]

19 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

One of my buddies is a bit that way. Popped $1,200 for clubs out of a big box. Loved them for a week and then decided the shafts were too short. Same guy bags on me for playing my ancient clubs.

If it makes you feel any better, though I bought new "woods" and putter, I am still clinging to my mid 90's Wilson Staff RM Midsize irons - 2-iron thru SW. I am still comfortable with all of them, and use the 3-iron a lot. When I was last playing regularly 15 years ago, hybrids were called rescue clubs and only used by ancient players - old biases die hard I guess. I have not tried a hybrid, obviously I should though I am not anxious to.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Midpack

[Wally Fairway]

27 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I think you are misinterpreting static loft. Static loft is only one part of club design. Launch angle, ball speed, spin, etc. all factor in to selecting the loft of the set to maximize distance. Clubs now have lower static loft because they launch higher and create more ball speed that muscle back irons.

From this review: AP1 Review

 

Also, to add to the point made by boogie - shafts have changed a great deal from steel, to a short-lived disaster with aluminum, then early graphite and now with varied flex, kick point and on to launch, spin, torque, and frequency

As an example - from the same group as listed above http://www.titleist.com/shafts

[mcanadiens]

1 minute ago, Midpack said:

I have not tried a hybrid, obviously I should though I am not anxious to.

Well. ... The 4-hybrid (an old Wilson multi-metal) I carry beats the crap out of my 3 and 4 irons. In my case, it works well because it fits between my 5W and 5I and gives me a chance when my ball is in the deep rough.

Other than money, I can't see any reason not to give a hybrid a shot.

[NCGolfer]

21 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Because they are hard to hit consistently well and hybrids are just much easier to hit up in the air and way more forgiving for the majority of players.    

Even lower-handicapped players.  First it was the 2-iron, but I haven't had a 3-iron in my bag for about 7 years now.  I went to a hybrid back in 2010 and haven't looked back.  Hybrids offer a club that is easier to hit and gives me a club I can carry the distance I need...longer than a 4 iron but not as long as my 3-wood (which I rarely hit off the deck).

Quite a bit of touring pros still use 3-irons and some still have 2-irons but the movement to a hybrid or something in between the longest iron and 3-wood is definitely there (on tour.)

[Midpack]

9 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

Even lower-handicapped players.  First it was the 2-iron, but I haven't had a 3-iron in my bag for about 7 years now.  I went to a hybrid back in 2010 and haven't looked back.  Hybrids offer a club that is easier to hit and gives me a club I can carry the distance I need...longer than a 4 iron but not as long as my 3-wood (which I rarely hit off the deck).

Quite a bit of touring pros still use 3-irons and some still have 2-irons but the movement to a hybrid or something in between the longest iron and 3-wood is definitely there (on tour.)

OK. With your index makes, it makes an even more convincing argument. I appreciate all the thoughts here, it was just a shock to see how much clubs had changed during the 15+ years I was "away" from the game. Other than cast cavity back irons (which I never liked/adopted) and metal woods, clubs didn't change that much from my age 10 to my mid-40's. I don't think lofts changed appreciably, and it never occurred to me clubmakers could somewhat arbitrarily assign iron/club numbers to whatever lofts they chose - I assumed a 3-iron would always be the same loft. And I am always a little skeptical of marketing claims, not just re: golf clubs.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Midpack

[NCGolfer]

1 minute ago, Midpack said:

OK. With your index makes it an even more convincing argument. I appreciate all the thoughts here, it was just a shock to see how much clubs had changed during the 15+ years I was "away" from the game. And I am always a little skeptical of marketing claims, not just re: golf clubs.

As @boogielicious mentioned, don't get confused by static loft.  Clubs are evolving when it comes to other factors...launch angle, etc.  It's a good catch and has been moving that direction over time for sure.

The hybrid phenomenon is completely different.  To me, it fills a perfect gap between long irons and the 3-wood.

[DeadMan]

A version of this thread pops up a couple of times a year. The bottom line, as others have said, is that clubs today have been designed so that the ball launches higher with lower lofts but is still more forgiving.

I have an old Wilson 3 iron that I bought at a thrift store. I use it occasionally to practice with a smaller head and a less forgiving club. I'm a low-ish handicapper, and I am super wild with that club. And it's at best half the height I normally hit my ball. I can't imagine trying to hit that club out of the rough, either.

You can keep these high lofted long irons. I'll play my hybrid and forgiving long irons all day, thank you.

[jsgolfer]

3 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

Even lower-handicapped players.  First it was the 2-iron, but I haven't had a 3-iron in my bag for about 7 years now.  I went to a hybrid back in 2010 and haven't looked back.  Hybrids offer a club that is easier to hit and gives me a club I can carry the distance I need...longer than a 4 iron but not as long as my 3-wood (which I rarely hit off the deck).

Quite a bit of touring pros still use 3-irons and some still have 2-irons but the movement to a hybrid or something in between the longest iron and 3-wood is definitely there (on tour.)

 

Just now, Midpack said:

OK. With your index makes it an even more convincing argument. I appreciate all the thoughts here, it was just a shock to see how much clubs had changed during the 15+ years I was "away" from the game. And I am always a little skeptical of marketing claims, not just re: golf clubs.

As @NCGolfer mentioned, I too have gone to hybrids.  I had a case of the dreaded "s" a couple years back and for whatever reason just couldn't get away from them.  Buddy had hybrids and said give it a try just to get through a round with an "s" and I find that I hit them better than longer irons.  As such, the longest iron I carry is a 7-iron.  I carry a 3H, 5H, 6H and a 7 hybrid.  

[Midpack]

11 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

A version of this thread pops up a couple of times a year. The bottom line, as others have said, is that clubs today have been designed so that the ball launches higher with lower lofts but is still more forgiving.

I have an old Wilson 3 iron that I bought at a thrift store. I use it occasionally to practice with a smaller head and a less forgiving club. I'm a low-ish handicapper, and I am super wild with that club. And it's at best half the height I normally hit my ball. I can't imagine trying to hit that club out of the rough, either.

You can keep these high lofted long irons. I'll play my hybrid and forgiving long irons all day, thank you.

That's another niggling concern re: new clubs for me. I have always gotten above average height with all full swing clubs, even properly hitting down on the ball with irons. So more height seems like it might be counterproductive for me? My wedge ball flight is already crazy high, I never like using my SW as a full swing club (about 90 yds), and the bounce sole doesn't help. My driver swing speed is mid-90s if that adds insight, so much slower than younger players but not in the senior range (yet)?

Again, I very much appreciate all the insights to bring me back up to speed. No offense to others, but hearing about low handicappers (lower than I ever was, I was high single digits in my prime) using hybrids makes me rethink...

Edited June 13, 2017 by Midpack

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, Midpack said:

That's another niggling concern for me. I have always gotten above average height with all full swing clubs, even hitting down on the ball with irons. So more height seems like it might be counterproductive for me?

Many of us have different preferences for shot height, and I'm not sure that there's a single optimal choice.  However, if you're getting fitted for new clubs, ball flight will be one of the things you'll evaluate.  I have generally hit the ball lower than average, so when I bought my current irons, I chose a (steel) shaft that gave me a noticeably higher ball flight.  When you get into graphite shafts, the different ball flights available become even wider, so you can choose a shaft specifically to get the ball flight you want.

[ScouseJohnny]

Sir Nick reflects on his greatest shot, hit with a 3 iron (18th hole, 1992 Open Championship). And then sardonically dismisses it with, "It'd be an 8 iron now."

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by iacas
Embedded video. Please do this yourself.

[Shindig]

27 minutes ago, Midpack said:

That's another niggling concern re: new clubs for me. I have always gotten above average height with all full swing clubs, even properly hitting down on the ball with irons. So more height seems like it might be counterproductive for me? My wedge ball flight is already crazy high, I never like using my SW as a full swing club (about 90 yds), and the bounce sole doesn't help. My driver swing speed is mid-90s if that adds insight, so much slower than younger players but not in the senior range (yet)?

Again, I very much appreciate all the insights to bring me back up to speed. No offense to others, but hearing about low handicappers (lower than I ever was, I was high single digits in my prime) using hybrids makes me rethink...

The height you get on your shots might be an indicator of the shaft too.  Different kick points and flex stiffness can affect height on otherwise equal (length, head) clubs.

There are guys on the PGA Tour whose iron set starts at 5 now.

In 1976, Raymond Floyd showed up at the Masters with a 5-wood in his bag instead of a 2-iron.  He was laughed at for a few days.  He had the last laugh on Sunday that year.

35 minutes ago, Midpack said:

OK. With your index makes, it makes an even more convincing argument. I appreciate all the thoughts here, it was just a shock to see how much clubs had changed during the 15+ years I was "away" from the game. Other than cast cavity back irons (which I never liked/adopted) and metal woods, clubs didn't change that much from my age 10 to my mid-40's. I don't think lofts changed appreciably, and it never occurred to me clubmakers could somewhat arbitrarily assign iron/club numbers to whatever lofts they chose - I assumed a 3-iron would always be the same loft. And I am always a little skeptical of marketing claims, not just re: golf clubs.

Being skeptical of marketing claims is a good habit.  I was very skeptical of the lofts too, for a while;  I insisted that I'd never get a set of irons whose PW was less than 47 degrees (the loft in all three sets I have owned).  I don't plan to have that requirement with my next iron set though.

[DeadMan]

34 minutes ago, Midpack said:

That's another niggling concern re: new clubs for me. I have always gotten above average height with all full swing clubs, even properly hitting down on the ball with irons. So more height seems like it might be counterproductive for me? My wedge ball flight is already crazy high, I never like using my SW as a full swing club (about 90 yds), and the bounce sole doesn't help. My driver swing speed is mid-90s if that adds insight, so much slower than younger players but not in the senior range (yet)?

I wouldn't worry about that so much. First, the shafts will do a lot to change how high you hit the ball. Second, you likely don't hit the ball high enough for it to really be a problem. Median apex height on the PGA Tour (on drives, but it ideally should be about the same with every club) is about 103 feet. You might hit it high compared to an average golfer, but that's a good thing.