Am I deluding myself about shaft flex?

[WUTiger]

5 hours ago, BallMarker said:

I just think telling someone who shoots in the  mid 80's, or more, to get professionally fitted is premature, and waste of money.

Instead, I'd tell them to make sure their game is "solid" and consistent, first. Then go get fitted.

Not sure what you mean by professionally fitted. Should those who can't break 80 be "unprofessionally fitted"?

If a person is stuck in the mid 80s, chances are they may not have equipment that fits their swing. This is especially true of someone who just picked up some clubs here or there, and hoped they worked.

A fitting can check to ensure you have the proper shaft (flex, weight, and dynamics) for your swing; proper grip thickness; and in the clubhead, the proper lie angle (too upright leads to misses left, too flat leads to misses right) and head design for the player's skill and power level (I have 85 MPH clubhead speed with my driver. so I'm not going get much out of a 90-gram Tour-X shaft on a low-spin, 9* driver).

I got fitted for a driver last fall. My problem - I was missing to the left, and sometimes had low flight on what felt like solid hits. It turned out my old driver 10.5* was closing down to about 8* at impact (I'm a bit handsy from persimmon days).

Compared to my old one, my new driver has a slightly heavier Tour Specs R-flex shaft with about a degree lower torque, with the face set open. I now get a gentle draw that goes 230-240 yds. total distance on decent swings. That's a gain of 15-20 yards on drives and a 50% increase in fairways hit.

Golf is a cyborg activity: it merges the activities of man and machine (the golf clubs).

If a player has hit the wall for being more solid and consistent, possibly he needs a machine (equipment) tweak.

And, I hate to be scary, but golfers do age.  What worked at age 40 may not work at age 53.

Edited August 29, 2017 by WUTiger

[Buckeyebowman]

On 8/9/2017 at 10:08 PM, djake said:

@BallMarker

In my opinion the single largest advancement in the game of golf over the last 10 years or so has been the access for all golfers to a Professional Fitter.

Also of extreme importance is having a high quality golf instructor and take lessons. 

If the Pros are still taking advantage of both of these items why is it that Amateurs are so reluctant too?

That's an easy question to answer. All of those avenues cost a fair amount of money, which amateurs may be reluctant to spend. The pros, since they're wearing logo'd merchandise, get that done for them for free, and are capable of experimenting to a degree which most of us are not.

[djake]

23 hours ago, BallMarker said:

Well, okay.... My main point was, most amateur swing changed from day to day, even swing to swing.... mainly because their overall mechanic isn't the most desirable.

I just think telling someone who shoots in the  mid 80's, or more, to get professionally fitted is premature, and waste of money.

Instead, I'd tell them to make sure their game is "solid" and consistent, first. Then go get fitted.

Even Tour players swing changes from day to day, while not as drastic as a amateur can they still do. 

I know for a fact that any player that takes the time when they are ready to purchase golf clubs will benefit from being professionally fit for the clubs vs buying off the rack.  The stroke savings can be drastic. 

I have a friend that struggled to break 100.  Now he is pushing into the upper 80's and he is NOT playing anymore golf.  He credits getting fit for his irons and driver as the reason.  And he is correct.

For me getting fitted for a driver has been a wonderful situation. Since I restarted playing this game in 2015 I blew money out the window buying off the rack drivers and after I found out about and went thru a professional fitter my driver, it is stunning for me.  I would never have bought the driver I am currently playing if not going into the fitting with a 100% open mind and letting the Pro do his work.  My accuracy is the best I have ever had even comparing to my younger days when I was actually a pretty good golfer.  

I stand firm - it is NEVER to early to get professionally fit for clubs.  Buying clubs off the rack is the actual waste of money.  There is way to much evidence backed up by actual data proving this point.  Take time to research it.

 

[djake]

15 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

That's an easy question to answer. All of those avenues cost a fair amount of money, which amateurs may be reluctant to spend. The pros, since they're wearing logo'd merchandise, get that done for them for free, and are capable of experimenting to a degree which most of us are not.

I am not stating that you should drop your clubs in your bag if you were not fitted and rush out and spend money to do this.  When you are ready to get any new club(s) get fitted for them.  And find out the difference between a Professional fitter and some place that pushes you into a bay that has you hit for a while just looking at club head speed and distance. 

Take time to outline what your are looking for well in advance before your fitting session and bring that outline in with you.  It is easy to forget an item when you are at a facility looking at all of the gear that is available.  Clear communication between you and your fitter is vital in getting the best possible outcome and value for your hard earned dollars.

Getting fit will make a difference in finding the center of the club, closing down your accuracy and maximizing your distance. 

The level of clubs and shaft options i hit during my fitting(s) was exhausting, so yes i actually had more gear to experiment with then Pros under contract. 

Based upon what i would have bought for putter, wedges, irons, fairway wood and driver off the rack i would have had a totally different set up then what i am playing.  I also know based upon the analytical data that was presented to me during my fittings for these clubs each and every item i would have bought off the rack would have cost me strokes in comparison to what i actually ended up with.

Golf is hard so, get lessons, when buying clubs get fit and most important have fun with it.

[Lihu]

On 8/1/2017 at 9:43 PM, Shindig said:

That specific shot?  No idea.  It was at a range that wasn't particularly well marked and I didn't laser any targets today.  GameGolf has my on-course 6-iron highlighted at 136 yards.  That, and the distances mentioned above, are carry + roll not just carry. 

I think he meant the other way, that it looks longer than 135 yards. For reference, the big pine tree is about 160-180 yards depending upon your tee position. Also, there are plaques buried in the ground to tell you how far are the flags. My partners checked them a few times to within a yard or so depending upon the stall.

As far as your question is concerned, did you go the the Roger Dunn or Golf Galaxy to have your swing speed and carry distances measured? You can go there to "informally" fit a club/shaft and keep on hitting until you find something that gives you the best results. Also, Brookside has fittings a couple times a year at the driving range, and all the pins are accurate within a couple yards or so.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Lihu

[Shindig]

19 hours ago, WUTiger said:

Golf is a cyborg activity: it merges the activities of man and machine (the golf clubs).

This might be one of my favorite sentences to ever read.

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I think he meant the other way, that it looks longer than 135 yards. For reference, the big pine tree is about 160-180 yards depending upon your tee position. Also, there are plaques buried in the ground to tell you how far are the flags. My partners checked them a few times to within a yard or so depending upon the stall.

As far as your question is concerned, did you go the the Roger Dunn or Golf Galaxy to have your swing speed and carry distances measured? You can go there to "informally" fit a club/shaft and keep on hitting until you find something that gives you the best results. Also, Brookside has fittings a couple times a year at the driving range, and all the pins are accurate within a couple yards or so.

The my 6-iron numbers came from GG, but were backed up a few times on RD West LA's monitors.  The fitting was at a Ping event at RD West LA.

Still haven't ordered the new irons due to an issue getting my store credit (gift cert through mail, having mail issues now, hope to sort them out soon).

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, Shindig said:

This might be one of my favorite sentences to ever read.

The my 6-iron numbers came from GG, but were backed up a few times on RD West LA's monitors.  The fitting was at a Ping event at RD West LA.

Still haven't ordered the new irons due to an issue getting my store credit (gift cert through mail, having mail issues now, hope to sort them out soon).

A 6i flight should be pretty high and a lot farther than 135 yards. If that includes roll, you're probably getting 127 of carry which in turn translates to about a 75mph driver swing speed. Either that or you're nearly topping all your shots and rolling it 100 yards or something?

Have you tried an assortment of different shafts at Roger Dunn's? You can rummage through all the used clubs then ask the salesman to match the performance with a new club if you don't want to purchase the used clubs that work best. I go to the Roger Dunn in NoHo, their monitors are pretty accurate. So are the ones at Golf Galaxy in Hastings Ranch. The folks at both these stores are pretty no frills, and won't sell you stuff you can't use.

[onthehunt526]

@Shindig

As stated before, there is no industry standard on shaft flex... None.

I play a very stiff X-flex shaft in my woods and 3-hybrid (I think it's too stiff sometimes), and a little "softer" X-flex in my 4-hybrid. My irons and wedges are the same shaft as my 4-hybrid just in S-flex instead of X-flex. 

When I was fitted in the winter of 2016, I tested the EX9 line of clubs with several different shafts. (I even tried steel in the hybrids believe it or not)... The different flex ratings don't mean anything... For instance, a stiff KBS 90 is softer than a 105, 120 or Tour. True Temper DG R300 and S300 are actually similar feeling. Project X 6.0 is stiffer than an DGS300 but softer than an S400 (the extra 3 grams makes a difference)...

I've found this out with steel shafts anyway... It might not be an exact science, but in my experience, I have found the lighter weight steel shafts of a certain letter flex are softer than heavier shafts of the same letter flex.

I have a set of Tour Edge Hot Launch irons I mess around with sometimes they have KBS Tour 90 stiff shafts at 102g. My Ancient Tour Edge V-Blades have DGS400 shafts at 130g... Which one do you think plays stiffer? Damn Right it's the S400.

Are you deluding yourself about shaft flex?

Hell no, No two shafts from the factory are the same. You can take ten shafts that are supposed to be exactly the same and they'll all be different. (If you use PURE they can be made to play exactly the same)... 

[BallMarker]

On 8/29/2017 at 6:35 PM, WUTiger said:

If a player has hit the wall for being more solid and consistent, possibly he needs a machine (equipment) tweak.

And, I hate to be scary, but golfers do age.  What worked at age 40 may not work at age 53.

If he is hitting" solid and consistent", he wouldn't be hitting in the mid 80s.....unless his putting is dead awful.

.

Yes. I know we age. So, get fitted when you become a "good" golfer. And get fitted again when your swing has noticeably slowed down at a later age.

On 8/29/2017 at 6:35 PM, WUTiger said:

Not sure what you mean by professionally fitted. Should those who can't break 80 be "unprofessionally fitted"?

IMHO: 99.99% of amateurs do fine with off-the-shelf golf clubs. Or even with someone else's hand-me-down....

[BallMarker]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:32 PM, djake said:

I have a friend that struggled to break 100.  Now he is pushing into the upper 80's and he is NOT playing anymore golf.  He credits getting fit for his irons and driver as the reason.  And he is correct.

For me getting fitted for a driver has been a wonderful situation. Since I restarted playing this game in 2015 I blew money out the window buying off the rack drivers and after I found out about and went thru a professional fitter my driver, it is stunning for me.  I would never have bought the driver I am currently playing if not going into the fitting with a 100% open mind and letting the Pro do his work.  My accuracy is the best I have ever had even comparing to my younger days when I was actually a pretty good golfer.  

I stand firm - it is NEVER to early to get professionally fit for clubs.  Buying clubs off the rack is the actual waste of money.  There is way to much evidence backed up by actual data proving this point.  Take time to research it.

 

Understood.

But, I played with too many guys that show up with the latest and the greatest custom fitted clubs only to shoot 85s, 86s and 87s.

I'd hate to see them play with a generic off the shelf clubs. They probably shoot 95 or worse. So, if their game/swing improves they would have to get refitted again?

It's their money and they can spend it anyway they want.....but, I'm just saying....

[1badbadger]

13 minutes ago, BallMarker said:

So, if their game/swing improves they would have to get refitted again?

Yes, as a player's swing improves/changes, their equipment needs change as well.

[djake]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 1:22 AM, BallMarker said:

I'd hate to see them play with a generic off the shelf clubs. They probably shoot 95 or worse. So, if their game/swing improves they would have to get refitted again?

Going on the premise that the golfer was professionally fitted to begin with then probably/possibly no.  What a true fitter will do is offer tune up's with your clubs.  They will check everything again and they should be very honest about cost benefit of any gear changes. 

But an entire gear overhaul, no I doubt it. 

Based on my last fitting with my Driver I was clear to my fitter that I wanted to go with as light of a set as possible that fit me correctly.  As the fitting went on it became clear that two shafts were fitting me very well.  Tense CK Blue 60 gram and Alidila NV 44 Magnum, 44 gram.  I lost focus and brought up the Tense and my fitter flat out told me to stay with my current Driver that the benefit of the Tense was not worth the expenditure.  Yet he was very clear and he was very intrigued by my pursuit of going as light as possible and the more we worked with the NV 44 Magnum the more it became clear this was an excellent fit for me tied into the Cobra F7+.  Without getting deeper into the Driver fitting and moving away from my point.  A true Professional Fitter will be up front and honest about cost benefit and only move you to new clubs/shafts if it will truly make a difference while also taking cost/benefit into consideration.

In summation, getting fit for clubs then getting lesson and improving does not mean that you now will need any new clubs.

Thank you for bringing up this point!

I really want to stress, I do not believe in running out and buying the latest and greatest what just came on the market.  Only when you are going to go out get clubs make the expenditure worth it and have a Professional Fitter involved.

[Shindig]

On 8/30/2017 at 11:54 AM, Lihu said:

A 6i flight should be pretty high and a lot farther than 135 yards. If that includes roll, you're probably getting 127 of carry which in turn translates to about a 75mph driver swing speed. Either that or you're nearly topping all your shots and rolling it 100 yards or something?

Have you tried an assortment of different shafts at Roger Dunn's? You can rummage through all the used clubs then ask the salesman to match the performance with a new club if you don't want to purchase the used clubs that work best. I go to the Roger Dunn in NoHo, their monitors are pretty accurate. So are the ones at Golf Galaxy in Hastings Ranch. The folks at both these stores are pretty no frills, and won't sell you stuff you can't use.

Ended up trying an assortment -- and a ton of different shaft/head combinations with the Ping reps a month ago.  I'm a big fan of the Roger Dunn crew too.

New 6-iron is going to be ~160 yards I think.  We'll know for sure in a few weeks -- I placed the order yesterday!

On 8/31/2017 at 9:40 PM, BallMarker said:

If he is hitting" solid and consistent", he wouldn't be hitting in the mid 80s.....unless his putting is dead awful.

Consistent yes, solid not always.  But even guys who don't break 100 are consistent (and you knew that already).

My putting was dead awful.  I've worked on it quite a bit this past summer;  went from losing more than one stroke per round compared to a 20 hcp to having a round where I lost ~0 strokes putting.  Most will be somewhere in between I think.

We'll see how the next few months go.  I have some time to practice but my priority piece is really tough this time.

[billchao]

On 8/29/2017 at 1:39 PM, BallMarker said:

Well, okay.... My main point was, most amateur swing changed from day to day, even swing to swing.... mainly because their overall mechanic isn't the most desirable.

People's swings don't change day to day or from swing to swing. They produce their good shots and their misses with the same swing; it's tiny differences that cause different results.

Please check out this thread:

 

On 8/29/2017 at 1:39 PM, BallMarker said:

I just think telling someone who shoots in the  mid 80's, or more, to get professionally fitted is premature, and waste of money.

Instead, I'd tell them to make sure their game is "solid" and consistent, first. Then go get fitted.

I disagree. It's entirely possible that part of their scoring problem stems from poor fitting equipment. That information might require a good fitting to learn.

I'm not saying that a fitting will drop strokes in everyone's game, but the idea that only good golfers can benefit from a fitting is wrong, IMO.

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, Shindig said:

Ended up trying an assortment -- and a ton of different shaft/head combinations with the Ping reps a month ago.  I'm a big fan of the Roger Dunn crew too.

New 6-iron is going to be ~160 yards I think.  We'll know for sure in a few weeks -- I placed the order yesterday!

Agree, and 160 is higher than your commensurate 220 yard driving distance. It's great you figured out everything so quickly. The Roger Dunn guys can fit you really well, and you don't have to pay for a $400 fitting.

Nice job!Now you just have to get fit for a driver that'll get you 245 yards!

Edited September 2, 2017 by Lihu

[BallMarker]

5 hours ago, billchao said:

I disagree. It's entirely possible that part of their scoring problem stems from poor fitting equipment. That information might require a good fitting to learn.

I'm not saying that a fitting will drop strokes in everyone's game, but the idea that only good golfers can benefit from a fitting is wrong, IMO.

Maybe. But it's really easy to blame the equipment.

How does that saying go....."it's the indian, not the arrow".....Is this PC-ly incorrect now?

[BallMarker]

On 8/29/2017 at 8:59 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

That's an easy question to answer. All of those avenues cost a fair amount of money, which amateurs may be reluctant to spend. The pros, since they're wearing logo'd merchandise, get that done for them for free, and are capable of experimenting to a degree which most of us are not.

Yup.

if someone else is paying for your experiment, or you have money to burn, get as many fittings as you want...and more power to ya. I hope you get your money's worth.

But it's YOU who still have to swing the club....

[Lihu]

32 minutes ago, BallMarker said:

Maybe. But it's really easy to blame the equipment.

How does that saying go....."it's the indian, not the arrow".....Is this PC-ly incorrect now?

A decent "fitting" helps a lot. Most people buy the wrong flex and it really stunts their golf potential.

 

19 minutes ago, BallMarker said:

Yup.

if someone else is paying for your experiment, or you have money to burn, get as many fittings as you want...and more power to ya. I hope you get your money's worth.

But it's YOU who still have to swing the club....

It doesn't have to be expensive. There are companies that sell new and used equipment here. and let you hit any club in the store for as long as you wish with between 4 to 10 Foresight GC2 monitors in that many hitting bays. I did that with all my club, but did pay for a fitting of my driver and 3W just to see if I got a better fit than just trying hundreds of clubs. Turns out that having the ability to try out as many clubs as possible with a LM at hand is just as good as the $150 type of fittings. The chain I like to go to knows this,and has many happy customers including myself and now the OP. Buy and sell used equipment and stock something for everyone.Genius.