Golf's Mental Game Aspect

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Id say one reason DJ is as good as he is is because his mind is not as susceptible as some others to conscious thought.

This is quite possibly true.

We do have a “stupid monkey” award on this site...

 

[kpaulhus]

4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This is quite possibly true.

We do have a “stupid monkey” award on this site...

 

DJ has a physical gift that he was able to fine tune. If there was a mental test to get on the PGA tour he would be chewing on his pencil and Paulina would be married to me. 

 

Cmon guys it's pretty simple. Nobody walks off the 18th green after a tough round thinking,"my mental game was crap today" better go to the driving range and sharpen my mental abilities. You remember the shot you hit in the water because you didn't hit it crisp or the putt that lipped out, or whatever. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by kpaulhus
Adding

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Id say one reason DJ is as good as he is is because his mind is not as susceptible as some others to conscious thought.

Then what about current top players like Jon Rahm, Jordan Spieth, Patrick Reed who are perceived as having the opposite mental dispositions. 

[JonMA1]

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

Then what about current top players like Jon Rahm, Jordan Spieth, Patrick Reed who are perceived as having the opposite mental dispositions. 

I agree that the mental game, as Erik defined it in the original post, is very low on average when compared to the physical skills for the majority of players at every skill level. But that doesn't mean I think it is has no effect.

We can't look at players' outward reactions or mannerisms to determine how focused they are when standing over the next shot. My guess is that most are better than average at forgetting a poor previous shot or losing focus when in the lead, for examples.

Better physical abilities on average probably attribute to a better mental game, IMO.

I don't know what it's like to have a decent swing. All I can do is go by the times when I've had more confidence in my iron swing. In those rare periods - which may last for months - there are few last-second thoughts during the backswing and there's a lot less anxiety and left-over frustration from a poor previous shot. That shank I just hit... it won't happen on this next shot. I make an adjustment at setup and really believe there's a good chance the next shot will be clean. There are one or two swing thoughts at address and I simply make my swing. I don't experience that when my mechanics are really poor.

8 hours ago, kpaulhus said:

Cmon guys it's pretty simple. Nobody walks off the 18th green after a tough round thinking,"my mental game was crap today" better go to the driving range and sharpen my mental abilities. You remember the shot you hit in the water because you didn't hit it crisp or the putt that lipped out, or whatever. 

Haven't you had a round where you inexplicably played like crap? And you know the next round won't be like that whether you go to the range or not?

I'm not saying the mental game is very high - which I think is what most everyone is saying. But for most, it does have some small effect and that varies with different individuals... 2%, 5%, 10%, maybe even 20% for some who really have trouble controlling their emotions.

[Jack Watson]

I’m just saying this.  It’s not really controlling emotions.  To some degree we have a limited capacity for that.  Under pressure,  before a tournament,  on the first tee there’s nerves.  After a bad shot many guys get the anger etc.  That’s part of who we are.  To me the mental side is not ‘controlling’ those things and simply deciding to feel something else.  That would be what control would be.  Control would be deciding how to feel under say major tournament stress.

We all have our own given level of skill.  The mental game is not going to increase that level per se,  it is what it is at any given time.  Mental game will allow you to achieve YOUR peak performance for your own given level of skill imo.

To me what is mental is feeling all that stuff,  but during the psr and shot getting to a level of focus where nothing exists for you except that shot.  The mental skill is not allowing that stuff to distract you or cause your conscious mind to try to takeover the shot (guarantee success by over controlling) by honing in into the moment for that brief period so well that everything especially ones conscious mind no longer exists.  In this way we do not get muscles working against one another.  I forget what it’s called but there’s something where conscious tension effort can recruit muscle action that is unnecessary  and screws things up..Forgive me for not explaining that better.  Something about muscle antagonism comes to mind.

To me the mental skill is a form of letting go into a moment and definitely not (in that moment) being concerned with outcome at all.  You are so engrossed that there’s only the action and the outcome doesn’t really exist for you until after the swing.

I think this is more natural to some than others.  For say a DJ it’s probably easy because that’s who he is.  That’s what I see Jordan doing in a big moment or what Tiger did so many times in his career.

I think certain people have a much tougher time doing this because their entire life is pretty much based on an opposite mode of their consciousness.  It’s nothing that cannot be learned or practiced however.  It’s very difficult to prevent the conscious mind from interference for some.  That’s the mental skill.

positive thinking,  negative thinking etc etc etc all that is crap and irrelevant and non existent when you are focused in the moment

Mental game is NOT positive thinking or some Pollyanna stuff at all.  It’s not thinking at all.  It’s going beyond thinking and over controlling and becoming totally immersed in the action you are doing at that moment. 

If you get there you will achieve in those moments peak performance for you much more often than by forcing things by conscious over control and interference.

I can’t get into the minds of others but I’d say for some this is very easy and for others very difficult,  maybe that’s why we have a wide variance in opinions here in this thread.

There’s a ton of research and info on the mental side.  A quick google reveal this article.  IMO anyone interested in this topic can find plenty of info.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201303/superfluidity-the-psychology-peak-performance

They can measure properties of the brain and correlate to flow state or the zone or whatever.  Tons of modern research going into this.  Military snipers get trained with devices to provide feedback for them to learn to get into this state.  

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Jack Watson

[Big C]

19 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Colin says as much as 50%, but I do not think that he means to say that an 80 shooter with a spot-on mental game becomes a 120 shooter when his mental game eludes him. 

 

Right, my use of the 50% was my admittedly lazy way of saying that the mental game is a huge difference maker among elite golfers (guys who already have PGA tour caliber swings). 

In terms of contribution to the overall score, I think the 5% assessment is fairly accurate. But to my mind, that is a pretty big deal! Take someone like me, with a typical scoring range of 76-85. With a lousy mental game, and a few "chokes" in a pressure round, I'm likely to have most of my tournament rounds in the low-mid 80's, the higher end of that range. Take the same golfer with a better mental game, and those tournament rounds start to trend to the high 70's most of the time. 

And to me, that's the most important distinction of a good mental game. It's not positive thinking will magically put Bobby Jones' mechanics in my body somehow. But rather, that I (or anyone) will shoot more closely to the lower end of their range of scores when the round matters the most. 

Most of us on this site have worked on our games for years, and know the excruciating difficulty of improving our skills to the point that we drop 1 stroke, let alone 3-4. If we can agree that 3-4 strokes is the difference between someone who performs well under pressure and someone who doesn't (given identical physical abilities), then I assume there be a consensus that the mental game is pretty darn important.

12 hours ago, mvmac said:

To be quite frank it's more than likely something physical, something is off with your mechanics. You're nervous because you know your stroke can produce inconsistent results. If you got your technique good enough to pitch off a green (example) you'd have a different experience next time you played in a tournament. Not saying you wouldn't have doubts, but the better technique will lead to better shots and "calm" the nerves in the long run.

There is probably some truth to this, and I am really hoping that you are right. Time to work on my short game a bit more.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Big C
clean up a redundancy

[Lihu]

12 hours ago, kpaulhus said:

If there was a mental test to get on the PGA tour he would be chewing on his pencil and Paulina would be married to me. 

Wow, I can see why you don’t have any issues with mental game

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Big C said:

Right, my use of the 50% was my admittedly lazy way of saying that the mental game is a huge difference maker among elite golfers (guys who already have PGA tour caliber swings).

It isn't.

It's a small edge. Small edges matter, but if you asked a mid-level PGA Tour player if he would rather have a stronger mental game or take 1/4 stroke off their putting each week, they'd be a fool to pick the former.

2 hours ago, Big C said:

In terms of contribution to the overall score, I think the 5% assessment is fairly accurate. But to my mind, that is a pretty big deal! Take someone like me, with a typical scoring range of 76-85. With a lousy mental game, and a few "chokes" in a pressure round, I'm likely to have most of my tournament rounds in the low-mid 80's, the higher end of that range. Take the same golfer with a better mental game, and those tournament rounds start to trend to the high 70's most of the time.

The 5% is not related to strokes, if for no other reason than the fact that you can't shoot a 0 (and nobody's ever likely to really shoot an 18, even). This has been mentioned and clarified more than a few times, including the first mention of it ever in the OP.

2 hours ago, Big C said:

Most of us on this site have worked on our games for years, and know the excruciating difficulty of improving our skills to the point that we drop 1 stroke, let alone 3-4. If we can agree that 3-4 strokes is the difference between someone who performs well under pressure and someone who doesn't (given identical physical abilities), then I assume there be a consensus that the mental game is pretty darn important.

No, not at all. Once again, you're ignoring or taking for granted all the work you did in dropping 50 strokes to get from 127 to 82 to begin with. You're assuming a baseline, and then attributing all the changes to that, when the baseline should almost be what you do with no real skills at all - physical or mental. The first time you picked up a club and played 18 holes, that's the baseline.

Dustin Johnson, again, could be drunk, stoned, pissed off, and distracted as heck and he'd still kick the asses of almost everyone on this site… because his physical skills are so far above and beyond. You don't get to ignore or take for granted the physical. That comes with you.

None of this is to say, Colin, that you're not an outlier affected more by "pressure" or whatever than most. Some other outliers play better under pressure.

[Ty_Webb]

On 1/26/2018 at 10:18 PM, mvmac said:

If the mental game is so important then how the heck are the two top players DJ and Jon Rahm? 

DJ is brain dead (his coach's own words) and Rahm wears his emotions on his sleeve and gets visibly upset every time a shot doesn't come off perfectly. 

It's because they are physically better than everyone else, they hit it better/farther/closer than everyone else.

Then I'm very much in touch with most of the golfing population. A mental coach would probably say I have a below average mental game. I'm not always as focused as I want to be, I get nervous, I think about where not to hit it, I hardly ever visualize my shots, I can get superstitious, I rarely "think positively".

Yet I don't really care about all that because it doesn't matter. Being nervous doesn't have much impact on the result of the shot. I've hit my best shots when I've been nervous and hit horrible shots practicing on the range by myself.

At the end of the day the better my swing gets the better my mental game gets.

In college I would struggle with a duck hook from time to time. So depending on the hole or certain part of the course things could get a little shaky. That shot is basically out of my game now so that miss is no longer a concern. Nothing changed with my mental game, my swing just got better.

To be quite frank it's more than likely something physical, something is off with your mechanics. You're nervous because you know your stroke can produce inconsistent results. If you got your technique good enough to pitch off a green (example) you'd have a different experience next time you played in a tournament. Not saying you wouldn't have doubts, but the better technique will lead to better shots and "calm" the nerves in the long run.

Kind of like when Tiger was labeled with the yips. He didn't have the yips, he had crappy mechanics that caused the leading edge to dig into the ground. Did Tiger look uncomfortable hitting some short shots, of course he did because his technique was producing crappy shots. Now his short game is pretty darn good again....his mental game didn't get any better, his mechanics improved.

I went through this recently with my putting. It's sucked for the past couple months to where I was shaky over semi-gimme putts. Week and a half ago I changed my grip and stance a bit, started seeing the ball roll in. I bet when I stand over a 3ft putt tomorrow I'm still going to feel uneasy but I'll probably still make it because the mechanics are a lot better.

Nobody has or ever will have that mindset for an entire round, it's impossible. The mind/your emotions are ebbing and flowing. No one has ever had first tee jitters for 18 holes just like you can't be positive for 18 holes.

Tiger gets nervous, Jack got nervous, Bobby Jones would get physically ill before rounds because he was so nervous. Again, you can be nervous, uncomfortable, unsure and still play great golf.

I think that might be another type of myth that people think tour players have some sort of mental strength over most golfers. They experience the same emotions, same doubts, same brain farts as the rest of us. You'd be surprised at how fragile a lot of tour player's minds are, and at some of the bad stuff that creeps into their heads.

I agree with @iacas that it's around 5%.

It can be tough to quantify but it's not much.

I bet you've also forgotten your swing thought and hit some really good shots.

Why would you think that being nervous equates to poor mental game? I don't think anyone has ever suggested that. Being so nervous you can barely breathe is not the same as having a poor mental game. Also, why would DJ and Rahm being top two mean that mental game has nothing to do with it? DJ is, with the best will in the world, too dumb to have poor mental processes really affect him. I would suggest anyway that the key thing is to have a mental process that is in sync with who you are. Rahm may be a hot head, but that's who he is. Being hot headed is not poor mental process.

If mental game is so tiny in its impact, that would tend to suggest that a given player might be expected to have a similar ranking in scoring average from round to round right? I took a look at 2017. Paul Casey is top in first round scoring average with 68.65. 100th place is 70.87. Final round scoring average, 100th place is 70.67. Slightly better, presumably because the better players are more likely to be playing in the final round. Top is Jordan Spieth with 68.44, also 0.2 strokes better than top in first round scoring average. Where is Casey ranked? Tied 80th, with 70.45. Nearly two shots worse. Unless you can suggest something that makes his physical game deteriorate between Thursday and Sunday by two strokes every single week, I think we have to chalk that one up to mental game.

Lastly a question. Do you like silence when you play? Does it bother you if people around you are talking? Someone yelled during Tiger's putting stroke on 13 yesterday and he hit a pretty wild putt. Noise doesn't have a physical impact on a player. Only mental. If you do like silence, why? Do you think that applies to everyone? Just wondering why marshals at tour events hold up quiet please signs

[Phil McGleno]

@Ty_Webb-Come on buddy-People have used nerves and not controlling your emotions as examples of a poor mental game.-You do not get to come on and say no way no how now.

And strategies change from round to round. A guy who just makes the cut may throw caution to the wind and go after it and try to move up on Saturday-Sunday and another may just try to play conservative to keep a higher place in the field. Courses are set up differently and all sorts of other factors are present-Like normally playing in twosomes.

So no-Too many variables to chalk it up to mental game.-Pretty bad post there I think and a small sample size too.

Noise absolutely has a physical impact on a player-You flinch. What are you even smoking man? You do not have time to mentally process it-You flinch or something. Instinctually. It is not mental at all.

I do not care if it is noisy or quiet when I play.-Sometimes I hit great shots in the middle of telling a story-I pause just two seconds to actually swing.

---

I think someone said it above-If the mental game was SO IMPORTANT to a PGA Tour player they would ALL have psychologists on the bag, because the other shit a caddie does is easy to learn. Get a yardage. Rake a bunker. Bring snacks. Anyone can do that.

But almost none of the top 15 or 20 even HAVE a mental game coach at all.

[Ty_Webb]

1 minute ago, Phil McGleno said:

@Ty_Webb-Come on buddy-People have used nerves and not controlling your emotions as examples of a poor mental game.-You do not get to come on and say no way no how now.

And strategies change from round to round. A guy who just makes the cut may throw caution to the wind and go after it and try to move up on Saturday-Sunday and another may just try to play conservative to keep a higher place in the field. Courses are set up differently and all sorts of other factors are present-Like normally playing in twosomes.

So no-Too many variables to chalk it up to mental game.-Pretty bad post there I think and a small sample size too.

Noise absolutely has a physical impact on a player-You flinch. What are you even smoking man? You do not have time to mentally process it-You flinch or something. Instinctually. It is not mental at all.

I do not care if it is noisy or quiet when I play.-Sometimes I hit great shots in the middle of telling a story-I pause just two seconds to actually swing.

---

I think someone said it above-If the mental game was SO IMPORTANT to a PGA Tour player they would ALL have psychologists on the bag, because the other shit a caddie does is easy to learn. Get a yardage. Rake a bunker. Bring snacks. Anyone can do that.

But almost none of the top 15 or 20 even HAVE a mental game coach at all.

How you deal with the nerves is mental game. Having them in the first place isn't. Likewise having emotions and being hot headed is one thing. Being in control by the time you hit your next shot is another. Rahm may be a hot head, but I'm pretty sure that he's over it by the time he hits his next shot. 

I made a point of showing the top and 100th rated results to show the impact of the different course set ups. How is playing in twosomes going to affect your physical play? You think you swing differently because you only have one playing partner as opposed to two? Fascinating. Those variables you describe don't affect the average player and they do affect Casey by about 2 shots a round. That's pretty substantial don't you think? I do. 

The noise affects you because it distracts you. I don't think general ambient conversation makes you flinch. I'm not talking about someone blasting an air horn in your downswing. I mean just general chit chat. Something you find annoying, but doesn't generate fear.

It's also interesting that you and others suggest that everything about being a caddie is easy to learn. Get a yardage. Rake a bunker. Bring snacks. Anyone can do that. If anyone can do that, why aren't they? Why do you think Tiger (someone notoriously careful about spending money) has a caddie who he pays a substantial amount of money to? Why not just grab some Joe from the crowd? He's going to want someone he trusts to give him the yardage etc, but I suspect he figures that out himself anyway. Some of them definitely do. I think the fact that there are caddies on tour who work full time with one player suggests that perhaps there is a little more to it than "it's 157 yards. Here's a banana". I also find it quite easy to believe that the top players don't want to admit that they need a mental coach and having one may be detrimental to their games. Having a caddie who knows what to say and when to say it though. They all have that.

[Phil McGleno]

Okay @Ty_Webb go play Lefty and tell us what you shoot.-You will have the same mental game as you do now and since it is such a big part of your score you will shoot and play not much worse than you do now with your +0.4.

Like @iacas said you are taking your current scores and ability for granted.-That is why he is saying it is a small percentage-Because you are not going to go out and shoot 130 ever again perhaps.-Your physical skills limit your scores to an already better range than almost anyone will ever shoot.

9 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

The noise affects you because it distracts you. I don't think general ambient conversation makes you flinch. I'm not talking about someone blasting an air horn in your downswing. I mean just general chit chat. Something you find annoying, but doesn't generate fear.

Idle chit chat does not annoy me.-And you used the example of someone YELLING in the middle of TW putting stroke. That makes him flinch. Bad example and you are trying to walk it back now but that is not what you said. TW missed that putt not at all because of a mental game thing-Because he flinched. Normal human reaction.

10 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Anyone can do that. If anyone can do that, why aren't they?

Really? Because not everyone wants that lifestyle.

Players have buddies caddie for them all the time.-Or their caddie gets sick and they pull a guy from the crowd to carry their bag for the last 11 holes. Or their agent caddies for them now and then.

Buddy I played on the Tour-I know a bit about what goes on. Cut the crap.-Being a caddie is easy. Yes, the better ones play the role of a psychologist now and then but they are not actual psychologists.-And if the mental game mattered that much, guys would be hiring actual psychologists to carry their bag because-Despite your knowledge of the subject-being a caddie is easy.

Good god this is a stupid conversation.

[Ty_Webb]

8 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Okay @Ty_Webb go play Lefty and tell us what you shoot.-You will have the same mental game as you do now and since it is such a big part of your score you will shoot and play not much worse than you do now with your +0.4.

Like @iacas said you are taking your current scores and ability for granted.-That is why he is saying it is a small percentage-Because you are not going to go out and shoot 130 ever again perhaps.-Your physical skills limit your scores to an already better range than almost anyone will ever shoot.

Idle chit chat does not annoy me.-And you used the example of someone YELLING in the middle of TW putting stroke. That makes him flinch. Bad example and you are trying to walk it back now but that is not what you said. TW missed that putt not at all because of a mental game thing-Because he flinched. Normal human reaction.

Really? Because not everyone wants that lifestyle.

Players have buddies caddie for them all the time.-Or their caddie gets sick and they pull a guy from the crowd to carry their bag for the last 11 holes. Or their agent caddies for them now and then.

Buddy I played on the Tour-I know a bit about what goes on. Cut the crap.-Being a caddie is easy. Yes, the better ones play the role of a psychologist now and then but they are not actual psychologists.-And if the mental game mattered that much, guys would be hiring actual psychologists to carry their bag because-Despite your knowledge of the subject-being a caddie is easy.

Good god this is a stupid conversation.

My mental game is dreadful. I'm coming at this from that side, not the other.

Like I've said since the first post I posted in this thread, if you're talking about the difference between someone who shoots 130 and someone who shoots 65, the difference is almost all going to be physical. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise and frankly a pretty boring point. It's so obvious as to not be worth talking about. I think it's much more interesting to talk about the differences between players who are a similar level. That difference could easily be 50% mental. The difference between Paul Casey on Thursday and Paul Casey on Sunday is mental. It's worth nearly 2 shots a round apparently. I feel confident in suggesting that he would like to narrow that gap some.

If idle chit chat doesn't annoy you, I think that makes you an outlier among most people who play the game for more than shits and giggles. I know plenty of people who flip out over people chatting while they're trying to play. I agree I mentioned Tiger - I concede that point. That yelling was not a mental thing. What about camera shutters then? No one cares about cameras going off after the ball has gone. They sure do before the ball has gone though. Why the difference? 

I'm not sure why an actual psychologist would necessarily be better than anyone else at getting you focused. Like I said before, my mental game is awful and I would sooner have a professional caddie caddie for me than a psychologist. 

[Phil McGleno]

8 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

My mental game is dreadful

And you are a + handicap. Case closed.

Camera shutters? Huh?-It is the same damn thing.-Physical flinching. Not at all mental.

[iacas]

@Ty_Webb, the discussion is not about what separates two identical PGA Tour players. That completely ignores the massive mountain of "physical" work that they had to do to get to that point.

And you're making an awfully big assumption on Paul Casey.

Seriously, you're only hurting your argument at this point, with the TW yelling and the camera clicks stuff, plus the bit about what separates two identical physically skilled players. This discussion is NOT about what separates two players. I've said the mental game can offer a small edge, and if the physical skills are literally exactly the same, and somehow "luck" is exactly the same, and everything else is exactly the same, then "the mental game," despite normally accounting for an incredibly tiny percentage, is not even 50%, it's 100%, simply because it's all that's left.

What kind of a topic would that be? It isn't one.

The vast, vast, vast majority of what contributes to anyone's scores in any given round is their physical skill. Their mental game gets a tiny fraction of the credit. You could put Jack Nicklaus's mental game in the body of a guy who shoots 120 and not only is he not instantly a PGA Tour winner, he's still not breaking 110. Probably not even 115. Because he's still gonna hit the ball like absolute shit.

I'm done (again) for now here. I suggest you take a similar approach, Ty.

[Nutsmacker]

It is kind of hard to define what the "mental game" actually is.  There was a term that I read in a poker book awhile ago(I used to play tons of tournament poker) that was called HALT. (H)ungry (A)ngry (L)onely (T)ired.  If you suffered from any of those issues - you should turn around and leave the poker table because your brain was not going to be able to make the correct decisions.  I feel the same is true when it comes to golf.  You are not going to play to your ability if you suffer from those issues.  I think when I consider my mental game, I am thinking that it needs to be there in order to play to the best of my ability.  But, as Iacas said, my worst mental game day combined with normal physical play, I am still going to shoot within 5 or 6 strokes of my average unless I completely loose my shit.  

[Ty_Webb]

26 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

And you are a + handicap. Case closed.

Camera shutters? Huh?-It is the same damn thing.-Physical flinching. Not at all mental.

I'm a + handicap from my non-tournament rounds. My tournament rounds not so much. 

Why does no one flinch after the ball is gone? They don't flinch then because they expect it after the ball is gone. Which means if they expected it before the ball was gone they wouldn't flinch either. Which means that they don't do that because it actually would be distracting.

[Dean Walker]

I think there is two completely different arguments going on here. 

The <5% side are talking about overall ability. This % I cant wholly disagree with, although I think for some, it is higher (probably like myself). Of course,  a guy who shoots 130 could have the same mental game as a scratch golfer, therefore the difference between the two is 100% physical. I don't think anybody could really argue with that. 

I think where I am coming from (along with a few others), is what is the % contribution of mental/physical that would make that round a success for you. Yes, no matter how badly I am mentally or play, I will very rarely shoot over 78, but to me this is not a success.

And If things went well, I could easily shoot under par.

So for me, the difference between a round which is 78 and a round which is 69 is quite largely mental. Probably closer to 50/50. But again, this is very hard to quantify as they tend to rub off on each other. 

Look at Tiger this week for instance. Was his unsuccessful driving display 95% physical? Absolutely not. According to his former coach 'Hank Haney', he wouldn't miss a shot on the range and then he would spray his driver sideways on the course. Is this 95% physical? Yes, his worst shot is still better than anything a 20 handicapper could do but the difference between his own best and worst is largely down to mental fallacy's.