World Handicap System and Pace of Play

[iacas]

I voted "Yes."

In the U.S., the handicap system "encourages" (i.e. requires) that we play against the course and post every score.

Currently, in the UK and most of Europe, they don't post to GHIN (obviously, or an equivalent, which is what I am saying here), and so they play against each other. If they're out of a hole, they pick up, because they don't need to post a score.

P.S. The World Handicap topic is here:

[billchao]

There will still be some form of ESC, right? I think they'll still pick up if they're out of a hole, if only out of habit. It's just what they're used to, right?

I see a lot of people here play strokes well beyond ESC. I don't know if they even post or not, but it really doesn't matter anyway.

I have read articles in the past of the tendency to pick up being a primary difference between US and European golfers. I'm voting "I don't know" but I'm leaning a little towards "no".

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

There will still be some form of ESC, right? I think they'll still pick up if they're out of a hole, if only out of habit. It's just what they're used to, right?

Yes, but right now they might pick up at 3 or 4, not 6 or 7.

[billchao]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Yes, but right now they might pick up at 3 or 4, not 6 or 7.

That's if you're playing against someone and they par or whatever, right? There's probably still guys like me over there that play as a single, then they'd pick up around double bogey which I believe is where their current ESC is? Or you know, where they wouldn't earn any Stableford points if that's their usual game.

I'm spitballing a bit. I have no idea really, but I can see arguments both ways.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, billchao said:

That's if you're playing against someone and they par or whatever, right? There's probably still guys like me over there that play as a single, then they'd pick up around double bogey which I believe is where their current ESC is? Or you know, where they wouldn't earn any Stableford points if that's their usual game.

Singles aren't a big pace of play concern.

Stableford is another example, yeah. They can pick up at net bogey I think.

[Shindig]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you pick up in a match play because you're out of the hole, don't you put the expected finish value for your score, not the ESC max?  For example, if I'm on GIR and 20' away but you hole your shot for eagle, I put down par (likely two putt) -- not 7.

That having been said, yes, I think it'll slow things down as people play out far more often.

[Patch]

I voted "yes", but I don't think it will slow the pace that much. Pace of play, for the most part, will  always be determined by how fast the individual golfer plays.

A course full of slow golfers will mean slower play. Just the opposite when the course is full of faster golfers. An even mix will be what it is. Picking up, or not picking up the ball will be a small factor in pace of play. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Shindig said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you pick up in a match play because you're out of the hole, don't you put the expected finish value for your score, not the ESC max?

Yes, but the point is right now they don't record their regular rounds for handicap. Only tournament rounds (basically) count.

And they play a LOT more match play over there, while here in the U.S. it's largely a stroke play game.

Just now, Patch said:

I voted "yes", but I don't think it will slow the pace that much. Pace of play, for the most part, will  always be determined by how fast the individual golfer plays.

They play at the same pace as we do here. They just finish their rounds sooner.

That's not just me saying it… http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/interviewyates/

[Big_in_Belgium]

I voted yes.
This is purely based on the way the handicap system (EGA) works in my country, so  take it for what it's worth.

There are two ways to enter a score for handicapping purposes: competition rounds or rounds where you have a marker to record your score and sign your card.
Both use the Stableford system and players are encouraged to pick up after net double bogey. 

If everyone is forced to play out every hole, this will definitely slow the pace of play. You only need one slow hole for things to start backing up, especially during competition rounds where the course is packed with handicaps from all ranges.

At the moment a 4 hour competition round is considered 'ok' at my club. Take much longer and you will start to get remarks.
 

 

(Btw, we also have a weekly medal where they use strokeplay to determine the net winner but handicapping is still done through Stableford.)

[David in FL]

I really don't know, but lean towards "no", so that's how I voted.

The vast majority of golfers in the U.S. don't even play by the rules, nor do they maintain a handicap at all.  And yet, they still play slow.  It's not a function of the handicap system, it's a combination of ignorance and lack of concern with respect to pace of play.  

In my experience, at clubs where most, if not all players/members do maintain a handicap, pace of play is significantly faster than at even better public courses where many/most do not.  As an example, at the 3 or 4 private clubs where I play most of my golf, a 4-hour round is cause for pretty boisterous complaint.  Even on high volume days.  In other words, it's not the system, it's the attitude of the players.  

As has been said, those in the UK tend to play quicker, but again, I'll attribute that to culture and concern.  I just don't think the relatively few times that someone will now pick up, instead of holing out is going to make much of a dent in a culture that generally appreciates playing a bit quicker.

Edited November 28, 2017 by David in FL

[saevel25]

I voted yes.

Though that is dependent on if they just pick up an move on or finish the rounds. If the match ends on the 16th hole, they might still play out or play a new shorter match over the last few holes. If a person hits two shots OB, they  might still play the hole out even though the guy has conceded.

I think with the amount of match play being played over there that it would have some impact on slowing down play.

[Alx]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

If they're out of a hole, they pick up, because they don't need to post a score.

Im confused. Are we talking tournament or just regular play?

 

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Yes, but the point is right now they don't record their regular rounds for handicap. Only tournament rounds (basically) count.

Huh?

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Alx said:

Im confused. Are we talking tournament or just regular play?

Daily rounds aren't used for handicapping purposes in the UK and some parts of Europe.

[Alx]

36 minutes ago, iacas said:

Daily rounds aren't used for handicapping purposes in the UK and some parts of Europe.

Oh. Over here you can use any score unless youre below a 4 imo. People rarely pick up even at 8+.

[billchao]

7 hours ago, Big_in_Belgium said:

I voted yes.
This is purely based on the way the handicap system (EGA) works in my country, so  take it for what it's worth.

There are two ways to enter a score for handicapping purposes: competition rounds or rounds where you have a marker to record your score and sign your card.
Both use the Stableford system and players are encouraged to pick up after net double bogey. 

If everyone is forced to play out every hole, this will definitely slow the pace of play. You only need one slow hole for things to start backing up, especially during competition rounds where the course is packed with handicaps from all ranges.

But the new system would still have ESC, which is where I'd expect European players to pick up. There will still be no reason to play past a certain number of strokes on any hole.

My thought is that you guys are more used to picking up and thus will be more likely to pick up once you hit ESC than players in the US.

But @iacas brought up a good point: in a casual round that can't be posted, a player might pick up earlier than ESC since it doesn't matter if they play on. Once all rounds are eligible, a player who has lost his/her hole can and probably will play on to ESC if necessary because they will need to post a score.

7 hours ago, Big_in_Belgium said:

At the moment a 4 hour competition round is considered 'ok' at my club. Take much longer and you will start to get remarks.

I don't see this changing. It's a pride thing to maintain a good pace of play for the club and the members will police themselves. I agree with what @David in FL says here:

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

In my experience, at clubs where most, if not all players/members do maintain a handicap, pace of play is significantly faster than at even better public courses where many/most do not.  As an example, at the 3 or 4 private clubs where I play most of my golf, a 4-hour round is cause for pretty boisterous complaint.  Even on high volume days.  In other words, it's not the system, it's the attitude of the players.  

As has been said, those in the UK tend to play quicker, but again, I'll attribute that to culture and concern.  I just don't think the relatively few times that someone will now pick up, instead of holing out is going to make much of a dent in a culture that generally appreciates playing a bit quicker.

 

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

But the new system would still have ESC, which is where I'd expect European players to pick up. There will still be no reason to play past a certain number of strokes on any hole.

My thought is that you guys are more used to picking up and thus will be more likely to pick up once you hit ESC than players in the US.

But @iacas brought up a good point: in a casual round that can't be posted, a player might pick up earlier than ESC since it doesn't matter if they play on. Once all rounds are eligible, a player who has lost his/her hole can and probably will play on to ESC if necessary because they will need to post a score.

 

 

Agree with you and @iacas in that ESC certainly allows for anyone not playing a stroke play competition to pick up at that point.  

Yet another reason that I just don't think the change in handicap system will have much, if any impact on pace of play....

[iacas]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

But the new system would still have ESC, which is where I'd expect European players to pick up. There will still be no reason to play past a certain number of strokes on any hole.

On that you might disagree with a guy who has made a career out of counseling people on pace of play. That's fine.

He made a good point, so I started the topic. We'll see who's right. Honestly I expect a little slower play, but not much. 15 minutes?

But that's non-negligible.

[Ty_Webb]

I think part of the reason why pace of play is different in the US vs the UK is the prevalence of what would be semi private clubs in the US. I think a lot of people are members at clubs in the UK and the pricing structure there is such that most people can afford it. Not so true in the US. Consequence of that is that people in the UK view their round of golf as a time thing. If you don't finish up the hole, it's no big deal because you can play again later or tomorrow and the marginal cost of a round is zero. In the US, you paid for your round and you're damn well going to get your money's worth. Marginal cost for a round in the US is your green fee. 

That is what drives a lot of the pick up when you're out of a hole. I think anyway. I don't think that will change with the new system. Not much anyway. It likely will have some impact on times though because people will keep going longer without picking up. 

In my experience, people in the UK tend to be better at the little things that add up. Things like putting your bag on the tee side of the green or leaving your spare clubs that you brought between the hole and the cart. Being ready to play when it's your turn. That kind of thing.