New Rules for Video Call-Ins

[David in FL]

41 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Great to see that the USGA and RA came to their senses!

 

Remind me not to play golf with you.  

I just can't subscribe to the opinion that it's only wrong if I get caught philosophy...

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by David in FL

[cutchemist42]

I feel conflicted on this.....

• I want the game to be fair
• I dont want golfers to cheat
• I also dont want golfers punished for dumb stuff (dumb to me) like that grain of Hi-definition sand in the bunker multiple holes later.

If I disliked the grain-of-hidefinition-sand moment and how it was handled, but agreed with the improper ball placement on the putting green, where should I fall on this?

At the same time, I've already come to accept this is maybe the most un-uniform officiating that exists in any major sport. You have fields of players over 150, and tvs like to follow some groups/players more than others.It's already been admtitted by many internet armchair umps that yes, some players do in-effect get scrutinized more because of the time of the day they played, and who they are.

Edited December 11, 2017 by cutchemist42

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I cant recall a situation of a video call in resulting in somebody that was outright cheating getting caught.

Why are you assuming it's about outright cheating?

Plus, there are many who think Lexi "outright cheated." So there, you don't even have to go back a full year. (I don't, but she was careless and should have known the Rules, and followed them.)

14 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Its always been somebody who had a ball move a dimple width while addressing it, or somebody brushing a leaf of grass or something in a hazard, stuff like that. All the while slowing it down and zooming in HD to a degree thats imperceptible to the human eye, then inferring the player is a cheater for not "calling it on himself". Bullshit.

The USGA/R&A already have a rule re: "zooming in HD to a degree that's imperceptible to the human eye."

14 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Rules officials do travel with most groups, and do a fine job 99% of the time.

99% of the time isn't good enough, and this change in Rules decreases that number.

14 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

The onus should be on them

To borrow your words… "Bullshit." The onus is on the players. It's not at all on the Rules Officials.

6 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

No other professional sport has this puritanical belief that requires its participants to be fully versed on the minutia of its rules like golf does.

That's a GOOD thing (for golf), IMO.

6 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

The rules of golf reads like a legal document

Read the rules of the NFL, the NHL, MLB… basketball. Their rules books are just as long.

6 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

The players are there to play, not to be aware of rule 13-4 subsection 2.

The rules describe HOW they play. NFL safeties sure as hell need to know what the rules re: bumping players off the line, pass interference, how to tackle, when a player is down, who can call time-outs, what defines a "catch," when you can sub in and out, what holding is, and many other things. And they're only playing half the game (defense).

2 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

I feel conflicted on this.....

• I dont want golfers to cheat

It's not necessarily about that. It's more often about inadvertent breaches of the rules. They're still breaches.

2 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

I feel conflicted on this.....

• I also dont want golfers punished for dumb stuff (dumb to me) like that grain of Hi-definition sand in the bunker multiple holes later.

If I disliked the grain-of-hidefinition-sand moment and how it was handled

That was already handled in the HD rules and the rules regarding what you can see with normal eyesight.

[Groucho Valentine]

11 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Let's envisage a scenario. Player A is playing in the Masters. He hits his drive on 13 in round one to the right into the pine straw. He moves a clump of pine straw behind the ball and the ball moves a fraction. Not a lot. Not enough that it's obvious, but enough that if the player had been looking at the ball they would have seen it. But he wasn't looking and neither was anyone else. It's on camera though. They show it once on the broadcast and the ref who is watching the broadcast chooses that moment to sneeze, so he misses it too.

Player plays on and marks his card at the end of the day. Signs it and hands it in. Next day, someone has DVR'd the broadcast and they watch it. They see the ball move. They go on twitter and tweet to the golf channel that the ball moved. The golf channel runs with it and it's broadcast over and over again. They get a rules official to come in and take a look at it. Rules official says "well, that ball clearly moved and he should have been penalized, but because it was only discovered by someone at home, we're not going to apply the penalty".

Player A goes on to win the tournament by one. He shouldn't have because he broke the rules and should have been penalized for it.

Bottom line is the wrong person won the tournament. How is that a good thing?

I have no answer for that. Call it just dumb circumstance. We've seen champions crowned in other sports despite missed calls or infractions. But somebody sitting on a couch at home shouldn't be allowed to influence the outcome of the Masters, i know that. 

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I have no answer for that. Call it just dumb circumstance. We've seen champions crowned in other sports despite missed calls or infractions. But somebody sitting on a couch at home shouldn't be allowed to influence the outcome of the Masters, i know that.

They aren't determining the outcome of the Masters!

No spectator can penalize a player who didn't breach the rules. The player who actually broke the rules broke the rules. Penalizing that player is more "correct" or closer to the "truth" of what actually occurred. It creates a fairer, more accurate competition.

I was the one who called Tiger Woods on the bad drop at the Masters years ago. They covered their asses, but I was immediately calling for his DQ despite wanting him to win that event.

The game of golf should be conducted in the fairest, most accurate way possible. That means using every resource to make sure that the right outcome is actually obtained.

[socialputts]

I am all for enforcing every rule.  I have 2 problems with viewers calling in a rules violation:

1. If video rule enforcement is important to maintaining the integrity of the game, it should be provided by the PGA and not the public at large.  Have a team of officials watching video with the ability to contact officials on the course when they see a violation.  It should be done real-time, so that any infractions are caught immediately. 

2. Not all golfers are being covered equally on TV, so rule enforcement by viewers is uneven across the field of players.  One could argue that the contenders are being covered and it's OK to scrutinize them more closely, but it's still unfair.

In my opinion it's laughable and embarassing that call-ins are allowed.  If it's so important that we know whether a ball moved or just oscillated, we should have a standard video review process in place.

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I have no answer for that. Call it just dumb circumstance. We've seen champions crowned in other sports despite missed calls or infractions. But somebody sitting on a couch at home shouldn't be allowed to influence the outcome of the Masters, i know that. 

Other sports do not require the golfers to call penalties on themselves. An offensive lineman isn't going to go up to a ref and say, "Oh I held that guy on that last play, you should penalize us."

 

[RussUK]

3 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I have no answer for that. Call it just dumb circumstance. We've seen champions crowned in other sports despite missed calls or infractions. But somebody sitting on a couch at home shouldn't be allowed to influence the outcome of the Masters, i know that. 

 

Yep, golf officials managed for many many years without needing the help of Joe Bloggs calling in after pausing his TV for the umpteenth time.

If they are going to use video analysis then just do it like cricket or rugby and go to the 4th official, make sure that person is sanctioned by the event to pass judgement using video footage.

Hell, if we did this in football (soccer to you guys ) there would be hundreds of calls in during the match (half from me...im an expert armchair commentator! )

[David in FL]

1 minute ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I have no answer for that. Call it just dumb circumstance. We've seen champions crowned in other sports despite missed calls or infractions. But somebody sitting on a couch at home shouldn't be allowed to influence the outcome of the Masters, i know that. 

 

Somebody on the couch didn't cause the infraction.  

Nor can you compare referees, umpires, or other officials in other sports to the rules officials in golf.  In other sports, in a relatively small, confined court or playing field, the officials are charged with enforcing the rules and are an integral part of the game.  Not so in golf, where any official who happens to be in the vicinity is there as an observer whose sole purpose is to assist and advise, as best he can, the players if they have a circumstance that they're unsure about...

[Groucho Valentine]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

The game of golf should be conducted in the fairest, most accurate way possible. That means using every resource to make sure that the right outcome is actually obtained.

Spectators are not resources. They're spectators. They should never be allowed to influence the outcome of a competitive event. Ever. If infractions are missed or overlooked in the line of competition, so be it as far as I'm concerned. You or I should zero say in the matter. 

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Other sports do not require the golfers to call penalties on themselves. An offensive lineman isn't going to go up to a ref and say, "Oh I held that guy on that last play, you should penalize us."

 

If he had true honor, thats what he would do. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, socialputts said:

1. If video rule enforcement is important to maintaining the integrity of the game, it should be provided by the PGA and not the public at large.  Have a team of officials watching video with the ability to contact officials on the course when they see a violation.  It should be done real-time, so that any infractions are caught immediately. 

Ideally it is. But what if you have a player commit a breach and for whatever reason, people don't see it "live." The truth is the player still committed a breach. They should get away with it because the video rules official had to take a leak?

2 minutes ago, socialputts said:

2. Not all golfers are being covered equally on TV, so rule enforcement by viewers is uneven across the field of players.  One could argue that the contenders are being covered and it's OK to scrutinize them more closely, but it's still unfair.

What's good about letting a KNOWN and SEEN infraction go un-penalized?

2 minutes ago, RussUK said:

Yep, golf officials managed for many many years without needing the help of Joe Bloggs calling in after pausing his TV for the umpteenth time.

You don't know that. You don't know how many rules infractions were missed.

And people have been calling in for 30+ years. Hell, one of the early British Opens 50+ years ago was almost over-turned because a player didn't return his mark that he had put to the side. But they decided that the tournament had closed so the results stood.

2 minutes ago, RussUK said:

If they are going to use video analysis then just do it like cricket or rugby and go to the 4th official, make sure that person is sanctioned by the event to pass judgement using video footage.

The spectator is not the one enforcing the actual penalty! The fully qualified rules officials on-site do that.

2 minutes ago, RussUK said:

Hell, if we did this in football (soccer to you guys ) there would be hundreds of calls in during the match (half from me...im an expert armchair commentator! )

You can't compare golf to other sports. Other sports have a shared ball and the penalty to one player immediately affects the standing of the other team or player.

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Spectators are not resources.

"Bullshit." Spectators are of course resources. "Where'd my ball go in the hazard?" "Right here, just a little behind that large rock" says a spectator. "Okay, thanks!"

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

They should never be allowed to influence the outcome of a competitive event. Ever.

They can only really make the event more accurate. But hey, who wants that?

[cutchemist42]

9 minutes ago, socialputts said:

I am all for enforcing every rule.  I have 2 problems with viewers calling in a rules violation:

1. If video rule enforcement is important to maintaining the integrity of the game, it should be provided by the PGA and not the public at large.  Have a team of officials watching video with the ability to contact officials on the course when they see a violation.  It should be done real-time, so that any infractions are caught immediately. 

2. Not all golfers are being covered equally on TV, so rule enforcement by viewers is uneven across the field of players.  One could argue that the contenders are being covered and it's OK to scrutinize them more closely, but it's still unfair.

In my opinion it's laughable and embarassing that call-ins are allowed.  If it's so important that we know whether a ball moved or just oscillated, we should have a standard video review process in place.

I actually agree with this a lot. I'd rather a dedicated team supplied by the PGA be handling this sitting in a review room on the course. Its an extra expense though, and the armchair ump is free haha!!

 

The only sport that I can think of that requires a bit of honor-code is curling if someone touches a rock accidentally. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by cutchemist42

[iacas]

So, @cutchemist42, you're good with a player being seen on TV committing a breach, and going un-penalized because the rules official in charge with watching the telecast happened to miss it for some reason?

That makes no sense to me. None at all.

[rehmwa]

5 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

I actually agree with this a lot. I'd rather a dedicated team supplied by the PGA be handling this sitting in a review room on the course. Its an extra expense though, and the armchair ump is free haha!!

I read the golfwrx article and it noted they will dedicate a rules official to watching the broadcast.

This is close, but still a CYA kind of thing that addresses the call in, NOT addresses correct application of rules to the entire field..  To be completely fair, they should have video on all the groups - with an official.  In this case, though it is intended to provide an "official" means of replacing all the call ins (which I agree with).  It still isn't fair in that any penalties or benefits only applies to those on video.

Edited December 11, 2017 by rehmwa

[Groucho Valentine]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Ideally it is. But what if you have a player commit a breach and for whatever reason, people don't see it "live." The truth is the player still committed a breach. They should get away with it because the video rules official had to take a leak?

What's good about letting a KNOWN and SEEN infraction go un-penalized?

You don't know that. You don't know how many rules infractions were missed.

And people have been calling in for 30+ years. Hell, one of the early British Opens 50+ years ago was almost over-turned because a player didn't return his mark that he had put to the side. But they decided that the tournament had closed so the results stood.

The spectator is not the one enforcing the actual penalty! The fully qualified rules officials on-site do that.

You can't compare golf to other sports. Other sports have a shared ball and the penalty to one player immediately affects the standing of the other team or player.

"Bullshit." Spectators are of course resources. "Where'd my ball go in the hazard?" "Right here, just a little behind that large rock" says a spectator. "Okay, thanks!"

They can only really make the event more accurate. But hey, who wants that?

They can talk about making the event more accurate with their friends. Spectator means "someone who watches" not someone who participates. It shouldn't be allowed in any measure. 

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

So, @cutchemist42, you're good with a player being seen on TV committing a breach, and going un-penalized because the rules official in charge with watching the telecast happened to miss it for some reason?

That makes no sense to me. None at all.

Sure. Its none of my business. Im not participating. Im watching. 

[rehmwa]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

I was the one who called Tiger Woods on the bad drop at the Masters years ago

I don't remember all the details here, Erik.  Did you see the bad drop and call it in?  Or did you see the drop, then hear the interview (where he noted he drop at a good distance) and put 2 and 2 together and then call in?  How did that one play out?

Edited December 11, 2017 by rehmwa

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

They can talk about making the event more accurate with their friends. Spectator means "someone who watches" not someone who participates. It shouldn't be allowed in any measure.

They're not participating. They're not penalizing the player.

The player incurred the penalty the moment they breached the rules.

Just now, rehmwa said:

I don't remember all the details here.  Did you see the bad drop and call it in?  Or did you see the drop, then hear the interview (where he noted he drop at a good distance) and put 2 and 2 together and then call in?  How did that one play out?

B. But I'm not gonna re-hash it here. Kinda beside the point.

[RussUK]

@iacas, perfectly fair comments and yes, the spectator doesnt make the decision and like @rehmwastated, they will have a dedicated official (like the 4th official or video judge). I suppose its the nature of progress and whether people like it or not its going to happen. And like goal line tech in football, even the purists come round to it in them end.

How common is spectators calling in? Would the number of calls increase once a dedicated video judge becomes standard?