Phil Mickelson how to shot shape - aim body start line, aim face to where ball ends up

[mvmac]

I'm a fan of Phil but this video is mostly bad for golfers to watch because it's confusing. He's right about some things and wrong about others. He says ball starts 80% of the face but contradicts himself earlier in the video. He's wrong about "opening" the face (aimed left of the target) to fade it and "closing" it (face right of target) to draw it. He's correct that a steeper angle of attack will launch the ball lower and that to curve it you should adjust the body lines and basically swing along those lines with a stock swing.

And don't do this to hit a hook, slicers bend their lead arm and keep it close to them 

[RayG]

All due respect to the "golf physics prove that..." crowd, BUT- As a younger golfer, reading Nicklaus, I wasn't interested or concerned about that stuff. I absorbed the information and practiced. The most important thing that took time to remember every time was to grip the club aligned to my feet, not the club face. 

If "golf physics prove that he's wrong", then I won't argue with it. I will however, continue to do it that way and consistently (mostly) get around obstacles and/or shape my shots using The Nicklaus Method I learned in the 70's. 

So there... nyah...

[iacas]

Just now, RayG said:

All due respect to the "golf physics prove that..." crowd, BUT- As a younger golfer, reading Nicklaus, I wasn't interested or concerned about that stuff. I absorbed the information and practiced. The most important thing that took time to remember every time was to grip the club aligned to my feet, not the club face. 

If "golf physics prove that he's wrong", then I won't argue with it. I will however, continue to do it that way and consistently (mostly) get around obstacles and/or shape my shots using The Nicklaus Method I learned in the 70's. 

The only point I was making is that you're not doing "The Nicklaus Method" - and neither was he.

If you actually did that, you'd miss the target every time (and hit a lot of trees you're trying to curve the ball around).

[mvmac]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

The only point I was making is that you're not doing "The Nicklaus Method" - and neither was he.

If you actually did that, you'd miss the target every time (and hit a lot of trees you're trying to curve the ball around).

Right, no one is actually doing the Nicklaus method.

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When Nicklaus hit a fade, his face was LEFT of the target. Same thing when Tiger, Trevino, Rory hit a fade.

[klineka]

37 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Right, no one is actually doing the Nicklaus method.

---

When Nicklaus hit a fade, his face was LEFT of the target. Same thing when Tiger, Trevino, Rory hit a fade.

The face would be left of the target, but right of the club path, correct?

[Zeph]

It's not a matter of Nicklaus', Mickelson's or anyone's method. If you want to hit that shot, you need to get certain parts right, mostly a path left of the clubface (for a fade) and clubface not aimed at the target. You can set up for a draw and hit a fade if you want, but that doesn't make it any more correct.

If you set up lile Phil and hit your target, you are not doing what you are set up for and intend to actually do. You are manipulating something to get the desired end result, and if you end up being able to do it consistently, it's because you've trained your body to do something different in yhe swing. It's like telling a dart player to aim for the left side of the board to hit the bullseye. Or aiming your putt a foot left of the cup and hope you are able to keep the clubface open and hole it. It doesn't make any sense.

The only reason it works is because you, Phil, Jack or anyone else is changing something during the swing. It's physically impossible to play a fade to a target with the clubface aimed at the target at impact. And this is not a belief or theory. This is science and physics.

If this setup works for you, great, but I would not recommend it, since you have to learn to do something other than what you sre actually set up to do. It makes a lot more sense to set up for the shot you want to hit.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Zeph

[phillyk]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Why not teach what actually happens, and help people miss the damn tree in front of them right from the start, without hitting "A LOT" of balls?

Missing the tree is easy, it's shaping it back the right amount that's tough.  No one can possibly get a 30yd hook from 150yds around trees right the first time, not even 10 times. It takes practice to know how and get used to orienting your grip or stance or whatever you do to make it happen.  If I'm out golfing with someone who has a quick question about getting around a tree, I'm going to save them the 5min speech and tell him approximately how it's done.  If they want to go further into it and think about it the right way, I can help with that too.

5 hours ago, iacas said:

You've got some learning to do there Phil.

With a 9-iron the face is still for 70-75% of the start line, and at higher speeds the clubface gets up to into the 85-90%+ range. The shear forces increase a bit more slowly than the normal forces. Plus, the effect of the differences to spin loft play a role - swinging a 9-iron at 120 MPH isn't going to get you 93% face either, but it will go in that direction.

Yeah, I guess I never thought through wedges or the effect of loft.  Good to know.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Missing the tree is easy

Not if you actually do what Phil or Jack say to do. If the tree is between the target and the ball, following their directions will have you hitting the tree quite often.

6 minutes ago, phillyk said:

No one can possibly get a 30yd hook from 150yds around trees right the first time, not even 10 times. It takes practice to know how and get used to orienting your grip or stance or whatever you do to make it happen.

I don't quite agree with that.

I don't have to play big intentional hooks or slices, or low punches, etc. very often, but when I do… I'm generally pretty good at them.

Three spring to mind from last year alone, and they were all unique, and I can't remember the last time I'd played those shots. One of them was a low punch draw from pine straw at Talamore with @cipher and @mvmac on that eighth hole. Put it to about five feet (an nGIR was the goal).

But then again I'm not trying to set up for one shot and then dynamically re-create another.

6 minutes ago, phillyk said:

If I'm out golfing with someone who has a quick question about getting around a tree, I'm going to save them the 5min speech and tell him approximately how it's done.  If they want to go further into it and think about it the right way, I can help with that too.

The "right way" is easier IMO. If you meant by the 5 minute speech you'd tell them the Phil/Jack way, I don't know why…

"Point the clubface about where you want the ball to start, and swing left or right of that to make the ball curve the other way."

[mvmac]

8 hours ago, klineka said:

The face would be left of the target, but right of the club path, correct?

Yes, the face is open to the path. Example would be face aimed 1 or 2 left of the target and path 4 left.

Good thread to check out.

 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't quite agree with that.

I don't have to play big intentional hooks or slices, or low punches, etc. very often, but when I do… I'm generally pretty good at them.

Yeah agree with that. Actually had to hit a 15-20 yard low draw around a tree the other day with 4-iron on a par 5 and almost knocked it on the green. It's a shot I rarely hit in practice but I know what I need to do with my setup to start it on a line and trajectory that it misses the branch 10ft in front of me and curves left.

[nevets88]

Already posted this elsewhere, but just wanted to point out, face is pointing nowhere near where ball is ending up.

 

[colin007]

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

Already posted this elsewhere, but just wanted to point out, face is pointing nowhere near where ball is ending up.

 

I have this shot in my bag...it's actually why I carry a 3 iron, for hitting those low stinger slices. The problem arises when I'm in the left shit and hafta hit a hook. No bueno.