Phil Mickelson how to shot shape - aim body start line, aim face to where ball ends up

[nevets88]

I checked the date of the video, it's 2018, can't tell when video was shot though. It's published by Callaway, so assuming video is pretty recent. Mickelson is a great player, but might be confusing people.

 

[RayG]

If you had one of those illustrated Nicklaus golf books (paperback) in the 70's, He used illustrations to explain this exact scenario. It's how I learned to shape shots in various directions. Lose a bit of distance on a fade, gain a bit on a draw. It's why I have 3 yardages for an iron- depending on where the pin might be on a green. I don't involve myself with "the physics" of impact angle, swing arc, face angle, angle dangle, testicle width, etc... Once I learned how to do it, I don't care. I can walk up, make my adjustments and hit it. It's sound, simple advice that generally works if you have a decent swing to start. Just like anything in the game- If you have a bad swing with little consistency, this isn't for you. And that $500 driver won't help you hit more fairways, either. 

[Patch]

11 minutes ago, RayG said:

If you had one of those illustrated Nicklaus golf books (paperback) in the 70's, He used illustrations to explain this exact scenario. It's how I learned to shape shots in various directions. Lose a bit of distance on a fade, gain a bit on a draw. It's why I have 3 yardages for an iron- depending on where the pin might be on a green. I don't involve myself with "the physics" of impact angle, swing arc, face angle, angle dangle, testicle width, etc... Once I learned how to do it, I don't care. I can walk up, make my adjustments and hit it. It's sound, simple advice that generally works if you have a decent swing to start. Just like anything in the game- If you have a bad swing with little consistency, this isn't for you. And that $500 driver won't help you hit more fairways, either. 

I have that same Nicklaus book. I read pieces and parts of it every so often. There is no doubt that his book helped a lot of golfers save strokes during their golf journey. 

[Mr. Desmond]

i saw that MIckelson piece on FB.

That's the way I've always heard you should hit a fade or a draw.

But is it? What about the famous 2:1 ratio of face to path.  Assuming a right handed golfer, for a draw, point face 2 deg to the right with path of 1 degree (Close feet slightly or move ball back in stance). For a fade, point face 2 degrees closed with a 1 degree path (open feet or ball more in front of stance).

Have I got that correct? No, Yes?

[Groucho Valentine]

I was taught to work the ball this way too. Seems simple enough and It might work that way for him and better players, but i think most amateur players who try to work the ball end up swinging where they want the ball to go and not off their body lines. Which kind of makes the advice Mickleson is trying to give here a little confusing at first. 

[phillyk]

This is, mostly, how i shot shape too.  But I know that if I'm playing for a big hook, the ball won't start on my body line. It'll start left of it and then hook.  I usually set my club face for just right of target, aim my feet/body about 5-10yds right of the tree line (or whatever is blocking me) and swing.  It'll start close to the tree line and curve back.  It's definitely something you practice on the range or on course A LOT.  Doing the practice will help you predict the starting line based on face angle, path, etc.

[Patch]

I have dealt with a unique ( I think)  issue with working the ball the past couple of years. 

On a tee'd up ball, with my metal woods, mid, and long irons, I can hit nice, slow draws, and/or fades pretty much at will.  However, off the turf, I don't see those ball flights. I have to use over exaggerated body, and club face angles. Even then the ball goes where my club face is pointing to. 

[nevets88]

The way he's describing it is your fades and draws will start much more in the direction where it will curve to. Pull draws and push fades.

[Piz]

Don't know why; but I have much more success playing a fade, using this method, than I do playing a draw.

[Mr. Desmond]

39 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

The way he's describing it is your fades and draws will start much more in the direction where it will curve to. Pull draws and push fades.

I thought face angle was 85% of the direction. So if you aim right or left...

[DaveP043]

Just because Mickelson says he does it this way doesn't mean he actually does exactly that, or that he returns the clubface to impact in exactly the same way he aligned it initially, or that he swings along his body alignment every time.  This "system" has been used for decades (successfully in many cases)  to shape shots, even though it doesn't align with current understanding of ball flight laws.

[klineka]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I thought face angle was 85% of the direction. So if you aim right or left...

My understanding is the ball starts where the face is aimed and curves away from the path.

https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

And the angle of the face at impact is obviously much more important than the face angle at address. You can have a super open face at address and still make that face really closed to the path at impact and draw the ball. Or said another way, just because the face is square at address doesnt mean it will be square at impact.

[Mr. Desmond]

4 minutes ago, klineka said:

My understanding is the ball starts where the face is aimed and curves away from the path.

https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

And the angle of the face at impact is obviously much more important than the face angle at address. You can have a super open face at address and still make that face really closed to the path at impact and draw the ball. Or said another way, just because the face is square at address doesnt mean it will be square at impact.

Yes, clubface stability is important if you want to start the ball right and have it carve left using the path/ ball position

[phillyk]

4 minutes ago, klineka said:

My understanding is the ball starts where the face is aimed and curves away from the path.

https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

And the angle of the face at impact is obviously much more important than the face angle at address. You can have a super open face at address and still make that face really closed to the path at impact and draw the ball. Or said another way, just because the face is square at address doesnt mean it will be square at impact.

At slow speeds like that of a putter, yes 100% of the direction is controlled by where the face is aimed.  But, as the speed of the club head increases, the ball will start more and more towards the path.  But only little percentages at a time.  

[JxQx]

I think it just falls into the feel isn't always real category. Those visual cues/setups may make it easier for him to produce what is actually needed to hit the shots.

[billchao]

Phil knows what the ball does. Listen to him at about the 3:00 mark, he says, "The ball will start where the face is about 80%."

What he's doing by changing his body alignment is shifting the baseline of his swing arc.

I think when he says to shift your body to where the ball will start, it's more of a feel or mental image thing. His shots don't exactly start parallel to his body alignment, despite what he says.

If his ball truly starts parallel to his alignment whether he is closed for a hook or open for a fade, he'd actually be hitting straight draws/fades and his body alignment would be irrelevant. He would have to achieve the turn by manipulating his path left and right which is the exact opposite of keeping it simple and swinging the same golf swing.

[Mr. Desmond]

Watching Cameron McCormack's new TGC Show - the Skill Code - it's on shaping shots, and he's screwing with my head. I just want a simple shape shifter.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, RayG said:

It's sound, simple advice that generally works if you have a decent swing to start.

No, it isn't.

It relies on the player's instincts to over-ride their brains and the advice they're given.

If you actually do what he says, you'll miss the target every time.

4 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

But is it? What about the famous 2:1 ratio of face to path.  Assuming a right handed golfer, for a draw, point face 2 deg to the right with path of 1 degree (Close feet slightly or move ball back in stance). For a fade, point face 2 degrees closed with a 1 degree path (open feet or ball more in front of stance).

With a driver it's around 3:2, with a wedge it's almost 4:1. 2:1 is only really true for the long irons.

2 hours ago, phillyk said:

At slow speeds like that of a putter, yes 100% of the direction is controlled by where the face is aimed.  But, as the speed of the club head increases, the ball will start more and more towards the path.  But only little percentages at a time.  

You've got some learning to do there Phil.

With a 9-iron the face is still for 70-75% of the start line, and at higher speeds the clubface gets up to into the 85-90%+ range. The shear forces increase a bit more slowly than the normal forces. Plus, the effect of the differences to spin loft play a role - swinging a 9-iron at 120 MPH isn't going to get you 93% face either, but it will go in that direction.

There's a point in the middle - think spinny pitches and some types of shots like that - with mid-speed shots where the corners of the grooves really interact quite a bit where the ball can get to about 40% path (60% face), but that's about the max. It's never, based on what we know now, more path than face, for a well-hit shot.

4 hours ago, phillyk said:

It's definitely something you practice on the range or on course A LOT.  Doing the practice will help you predict the starting line based on face angle, path, etc.

Right… because you've got to train your body to do differently than your mind and setup are telling you to do.

It's a pity when instructors preach this "ball starts on the path, curves toward where the face is pointing." Sure, over time, if you hit enough balls your body will learn to dynamically change these conditions to produce the desired shot, but why put that road block or impediment in the way? Why not teach what actually happens, and help people miss the damn tree in front of them right from the start, without hitting "A LOT" of balls?