160 yards to break 90?!

[onthehunt526]

Erik, I promise I'm not spamming. I just am looking for some discussion.

Hi, TST Universe.

Now this is a bit of an odd one. The YouTuber in this video, GolfSidekick, states anyone can break 90 with the following formula: (it's also at the end of the video)

1. A club you can consistently hit 160 yards or more off the tee and keep out of trouble. (Use this club off the tee on par-4s and par 5s)

2. Two clubs you confidently can hit on the green from inside of 150 yards.

3. One wedge to chip with

4. One club to hit 30-70 yard pitch shots with (though you want to avoid these shots)

5. When you chip, don't worry about getting very close to the hole, just get it on the green.

6. Keep your head down forever on short putts and consistently two-putt.

7. Break all long approaches into two shorter shots... (i.e. if you have 220 yards hit a 120 yard shot and a 100 yard shot)

I am not in the 90-100 club right now. But it makes some sense. It's kind of LSW (sort of). Kind of stay out of trouble and you'll score better. Matt (GolfSidekick) is obviously a better player than what he's demonstrating... But it has some merit. 

Like I stated before, I'm not in this range (though I still sometimes shoot in the 90s). 

Let the debate again... The video is a little long, so feel free to skip around or watch just a few holes.

[Patch]

I can break 90, on a good day, with a 7W, 7I, and a wedge. I'd putt with my 7W. I have done this alot in 3 club tournaments. Lots of 86-88 scores.

I have no  reason  disagree with the OP's 160 yard scenario. 

I read some where that on a 6600 yard course, using a 140 yard club, and a putter, a golfer could break 90. The article used the number 86 for strokes. They then subtracted 36 putts from 86, leaving 50 strokes to get to the green. 6600 yards, divided by the 50 strokes equaled the 140 yard club. 

The article went on to say, any putting strokes below the total of 36, we're added to the tee to green strokes. The key was to be a par putter or better. 

So, using a well controlled, 160 yard club off the tee would be even better I would guess. 

Sounds like something I might try, just for fun. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Patch

[billchao]

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Now this is a bit of an odd one. The YouTuber in this video, GolfSidekick, states anyone can break 90 with the following formula

Sure, if by anyone, he means anyone who's already a 10 handicap or better.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

1. A club you can consistently hit 160 yards or more off the tee and keep out of trouble. (Use this club off the tee on par-4s and par 5s)

A golfer who struggles to break 90 isn't going to have a club they can consistently hit 160 and keep out of trouble. They likely struggle with solid contact and at times are prone to thin, fat, or topped shots. Laying up off the tee will increase the chance of one of these big misses occurring because they have to make more full swing motions to get the ball to the green.

This is why higher handicaps tend to score better relative to par on par 3s and worse on par 5s, whereas better players score better on par 5s than they do on par 3s.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

2. Two clubs you confidently can hit on the green from inside of 150 yards.

Kind of the same as the first one: these clubs probably don't exist. This golfer probably struggles to get all of their pitch shots on the green. It's likely their shot zones from 150 are still going to put them into trouble, and they're still going to fat, thin, or top the occasional approach.

This also implies they should lay up to a specific approach distance, which I don't agree with.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

3. One wedge to chip with

According to @David in FL, it better be a chipper 

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

4. One club to hit 30-70 yard pitch shots with (though you want to avoid these shots)

That increases the difficulty of these shots, though. Instead of properly mapping partial wedges, they want a high handicap player to learn how to vary the feel and length of their swing to hit the same club over a wide variety of distances? That's got disaster written all over it.

And I don't agree with the second part, either. We all know golfers of all levels tend to hit the ball closer to their target on shorter shots. They will do better on average from 40 yards than they will from 120.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

5. When you chip, don't worry about getting very close to the hole, just get it on the green

I agree with this. The primary goal of a pitch or chip should be to not have a followup one.

But again, skill is important. People don't skull pitches because they're trying to get the ball too close to the hole; they do it because they have poor mechanics.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

6. Keep your head down forever on short putts and consistently two-putt

Uh right. Everyone can avoid three-putting if they would just consistently two-putt...

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

7. Break all long approaches into two shorter shots... (i.e. if you have 220 yards hit a 120 yard shot and a 100 yard shot)

See #1. Breaking down a long approach (which BTW you'll have a lot more of if you follow tip #1) into two shorter shots increases the likelihood of misses. It's not like high handicap golfers struggle only with longer clubs and they hit their short clubs with great contact.

This really makes no sense if you combine it with tip #1. Most of the par 4s would be three shot holes, the par 5s can be more depending on length. So a high handicap player makes three shots and say they hit they green on their third and follow tip #6 and two-putt for bogey. Or maybe they miss the green and have to one chip, then two-putt for double. Oh, don't forget tip #4, so their 200 yard approach is now two 100 yard shots. Did I mention fats/thins/tops?

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

But it makes some sense. It's kind of LSW (sort of).

Not really, at least not to me. Distance has shades of grey. It's not like everything within the fairway is white. Advance the ball as far as you can without bringing trouble into play, not arbitrarily assign a yardage to hit your tee shots and approach shots to.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Kind of stay out of trouble and you'll score better

I can avoid trouble if I pitch the ball 40 yards everywhere, doesn't mean I'll score better.

Learning to break 90 requires improving one's skillset. There's no gimmick that will magically make a person pass that benchmark.

These tips seem more like a demonstration of how a good golfer can still break 90 using only four short clubs rather than advice for a poorer golfer struggling to break 90.

[JonMA1]

I'm sorry if this post sounds cynical @onthehunt526. I think it's great that you're sharing information that might help those of us who struggle and I appreciate it. This isn't meant to be critical of you for posting. 

The concept is nonsense, IMO. Unless someone is just making really dumb decisions, any milestone requires a necessary level of skill to achieve.

Sure, there are plenty of folks flirting with 90 who would save a couple strokes by changing up their strategy. To those, this strategy might have some merit. However, the quote above claims anyone can break 90.

I've broken 90 twice in my life and it was from playing "lights out" golf (for me) on short courses (feel free to ridicule). What's more, I play with people who have zero chance of breaking 90 with their current abilities.

Two of my favorites....

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

2. Two clubs you confidently can hit on the green from inside of 150 yards.

 

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

6. Keep your head down forever on short putts and consistently two-putt.

Oh, I never thought about that.... confidently hit greens from inside 150 and never 3 putt. Done and done! Does this guy ever play with 90 golfers?

It's just that people love to make claims or guarantees on the internet without consequence. I'd pay $100 to anyone who can show me how to break 90 on a 6,000 yard course by simply changing my strategy. It would be the best $100 ever spent.

[NEhomer]

22 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I'm sorry if this post sounds cynical @onthehunt526. I think it's great that you're sharing information that might help those of us who struggle and I appreciate it. This isn't meant to be critical of you for posting. 

The concept is nonsense, IMO. Unless someone is just making really dumb decisions, any milestone requires a necessary level of skill to achieve.

Sure, there are plenty of folks flirting with 90 who would save a couple strokes by changing up their strategy. To those, this strategy might have some merit. However, the quote above claims anyone can break 90.

I've broken 90 twice in my life and it was from playing "lights out" golf (for me) on short courses (feel free to ridicule). What's more, I play with people who have zero chance of breaking 90 with their current abilities.

Two of my favorites....

 

Oh, I never thought about that.... confidently hit greens from inside 150 and never 3 putt. Done and done! Does this guy ever play with 90 golfers?

It's just that people love to make claims or guarantees on the internet without consequence. I'd pay $100 to anyone who can show me how to break 90 on a 6,000 yard course by simply changing my strategy. It would be the best $100 ever spent.

I'd pay $100 to anyone who can show me how to break 90 on a 6,000 yard course by simply changing my strategy. It would be the best $100 ever spent.

Don't hit bad shots.

You can paypal me the hundred bucks!  

[JonMA1]

6 minutes ago, NEhomer said:

I'd pay $100 to anyone who can show me how to break 90 on a 6,000 yard course by simply changing my strategy. It would be the best $100 ever spent.

Don't hit bad shots.

You can paypal me the hundred bucks!  

Definition of talent

1a : a special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude 

b : general intelligence or mental power : ability

---

 

Definition of strategy

plural strategies

1a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war  

(2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions 

b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy 

2a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem

b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal

---

 

There. We're even.

 

 

[NEhomer]

1 minute ago, JonMA1 said:

Definition of talent

1a : a special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude 

b : general intelligence or mental power : ability

---

 

Definition of strategy

plural strategies

1a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war  

(2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions 

b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy 

2a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem

b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal

---

 

There. We're even.

 

 

Ok, Take better aim.

 +1

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

 

According to @David in FL, it better be a chipper 

 

See, someone is paying attention!  

[billchao]

14 minutes ago, David in FL said:

See, someone is paying attention!  

I'm still waiting for you to send me one to review 

[Lihu]

9 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Let the debate again... The video is a little long, so feel free to skip around or watch just a few holes.

 

There's really no debate, if a 100s shooter takes all the clubs he hits really bad or swings conservatively he can probably shoot bogey golf.

 

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

I'm sorry if this post sounds cynical @onthehunt526. I think it's great that you're sharing information that might help those of us who struggle and I appreciate it. This isn't meant to be critical of you for posting. 

The concept is nonsense, IMO. Unless someone is just making really dumb decisions, any milestone requires a necessary level of skill to achieve.

 

It's good for training, but not for scoring lower. Why not just back off the driver? Hit a slow drill swing with a driver and most men can knock it easily 160 yards straight.

[onthehunt526]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

Sure, if by anyone, he means anyone who's already a 10 handicap or better.

A golfer who struggles to break 90 isn't going to have a club they can consistently hit 160 and keep out of trouble. They likely struggle with solid contact and at times are prone to thin, fat, or topped shots. Laying up off the tee will increase the chance of one of these big misses occurring because they have to make more full swing motions to get the ball to the green.

This is why higher handicaps tend to score better relative to par on par 3s and worse on par 5s, whereas better players score better on par 5s than they do on par 3s.

Kind of the same as the first one: these clubs probably don't exist. This golfer probably struggles to get all of their pitch shots on the green. It's likely their shot zones from 150 are still going to put them into trouble, and they're still going to fat, thin, or top the occasional approach.

This also implies they should lay up to a specific approach distance, which I don't agree with.

According to @David in FL, it better be a chipper 

That increases the difficulty of these shots, though. Instead of properly mapping partial wedges, they want a high handicap player to learn how to vary the feel and length of their swing to hit the same club over a wide variety of distances? That's got disaster written all over it.

And I don't agree with the second part, either. We all know golfers of all levels tend to hit the ball closer to their target on shorter shots. They will do better on average from 40 yards than they will from 120.

I agree with this. The primary goal of a pitch or chip should be to not have a followup one.

But again, skill is important. People don't skull pitches because they're trying to get the ball too close to the hole; they do it because they have poor mechanics.

Uh right. Everyone can avoid three-putting if they would just consistently two-putt...

See #1. Breaking down a long approach (which BTW you'll have a lot more of if you follow tip #1) into two shorter shots increases the likelihood of misses. It's not like high handicap golfers struggle only with longer clubs and they hit their short clubs with great contact.

This really makes no sense if you combine it with tip #1. Most of the par 4s would be three shot holes, the par 5s can be more depending on length. So a high handicap player makes three shots and say they hit they green on their third and follow tip #6 and two-putt for bogey. Or maybe they miss the green and have to one chip, then two-putt for double. Oh, don't forget tip #4, so their 200 yard approach is now two 100 yard shots. Did I mention fats/thins/tops?

Not really, at least not to me. Distance has shades of grey. It's not like everything within the fairway is white. Advance the ball as far as you can without bringing trouble into play, not arbitrarily assign a yardage to hit your tee shots and approach shots to.

I can avoid trouble if I pitch the ball 40 yards everywhere, doesn't mean I'll score better.

Learning to break 90 requires improving one's skillset. There's no gimmick that will magically make a person pass that benchmark.

These tips seem more like a demonstration of how a good golfer can still break 90 using only four short clubs rather than advice for a poorer golfer struggling to break 90.

@billchao, I didn't come up with the system... I don't agree with a lot of it either.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

@billchao, I didn't come up with the system... I don't agree with a lot of it either.

I never suggested you did, though I vehemently disagree with your assertion that:

10 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

It's kind of LSW (sort of)

You brought it up for discussion... and I'm discussing 

If anything it's just another example of how good golfers forget or don't realize just how bad poor golfers can be.

[onthehunt526]

12 minutes ago, billchao said:

I never suggested you did, though I vehemently disagree with your assertion that:

You brought it up for discussion... and I'm discussing 

If anything it's just another example of how good golfers forget or don't realize just how bad poor golfers can be.

The main issue I have with it, is like you said, golfers stuck in the 90s, don't make consistent enough contact with, well any club to try this. Could it work better than what they are doing now? Sure, it's plausible. Will it instantly make them better? No. Not a chance.

[Patch]

Maybe I took the wrong interpetation of the OP's first post, but I was thinking the 160 yard scenario would work for golfers' who have a poor long game, but also have a decent middle, and short game. The golfer who loses so many more shots off the tee, and their longer approach game, but can make up strokes with the shorter clubs.

I've seen a lot players who can play pretty good golf from the 150 marker. If they played their 150 game from tee to their last putt, they would save a few strokes. 

[b101]

Yeah, not buying this. What do you do on a 200 yard par three? Play your 7 iron into trouble, then try to get up and down? Just feels like clickbait IMO.

This is where I never understand the 'take 3 wood over driver for safety' argument. My misses with a 3 wood might be better, laterally, by I'm about 100 more times likely to top it or sky it and have it go nowhere. 

Also, as @billchao mentions, it's very easy to say just 'two putt every hole' and don't miss close range putts. Anyone struggling to break 90 just has no chance of doing this without actually working on their stroke and fundamentals.

2 minutes ago, Patch said:

I've seen a lot players who can play pretty good golf from the 150 marker. If they played their 150 game from tee to their last putt, they would save a few strokes. 

Maybe, but it's hardly a strategy for long-term improvement...

[billchao]

1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

The main issue I have with it, is like you said, golfers stuck in the 90s, don't make consistent enough contact with, well any club to try this. Could it work better than what they are doing now? Sure, it's plausible. Will it instantly make them better? No. Not a chance.

Sure, anything is plausible, like hitting a worm burner that drops for an ace. But there's a difference between plausible and realistic. The premise of the video suggests that everyone has the skill to break 90 if they weren't making poor decisions is one I'm not buying.

26 minutes ago, Patch said:

Maybe I took the wrong interpetation of the OP's first post, but I was thinking the 160 yard scenario would work for golfers' who have a poor long game, but also have a decent middle, and short game. The golfer who loses so many more shots off the tee, and their longer approach game, but can make up strokes with the shorter clubs.

I have a hard time picturing this fictional golfer in real life. The full swing is going to be similar whether you're swinging a 9i or a 5i. A golfer who tops his 200 yard approach attempt can still top his 120 yard attempt.

The entire strategy causes a golfer to add full swing attempts to a round. A high handicap player has a better chance to score well by stringing two good shots together rather than three or possibly four.

29 minutes ago, b101 said:

This is where I never understand the 'take 3 wood over driver for safety' argument. My misses with a 3 wood might be better, laterally, by I'm about 100 more times likely to top it or sky it and have it go nowhere. 

And you can still hit a 3w in the woods, while a good result would leave you 20 or 30 yards behind a good shot with your driver.

The only time I pull a 3w off the tee now is when I don't want driver distance due to the hole layout, and even then most times I can get away with hitting a 3/4 driver which is an easier swing with a more forgiving club.

[JonMA1]

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

There's really no debate, if a 100s shooter takes all the clubs he hits really bad or swings conservatively he can probably shoot bogey golf.

Huh?

I've tried every variation from extremely conservative to more aggressive and everything in between. In the end, LSW strategy is the best. It only requires one to know their game. Hit the ball well and you score lower. 

I'm not sure what other 100's (high 90's) golfers are doing, but in my case, strategy has almost nothing to do with not being able to break 90. Absent of any really stupid decisions, It's about developing a good full swing and a good short game.

4 hours ago, NEhomer said:

Ok, Take better aim.

 +1

I just got back from playing 9 holes. I scored lower than I ever have. I would have played 18 but then I figured I'd owe you $100. .

[Lihu]

55 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Huh?

I've tried every variation from extremely conservative to more aggressive and everything in between. In the end, LSW strategy is the best. It only requires one to know their game. Hit the ball well and you score lower. 

I'm not sure what other 100's (high 90's) golfers are doing, but in my case, strategy has almost nothing to do with not being able to break 90. Absent of any really stupid decisions, It's about developing a good full swing and a good short game.

Spellchecker took out “took out all the clubs he can’t hit out of the bag” then hit conservatively.