USGA/R&A Finalize 2019 Rules of Golf

[Missouri Swede]

39 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

That made it virtually impossible to make a "controlled" drop, but it did leave the possibility of getting a stronger "kick" as the ball rolled off your shoulder blade.

They didn’t require a re-drop if it hit the player?

[DaveP043]

17 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

They didn’t require a re-drop if it hit the player?

Based on www.ruleshistory.com, the over-the-shoulder drop was in effect from 1908 to 1984.  Up to a certain point you would play the ball as it lies, even if it hit the player.  In 1972, if it touches the player before it hits the ground, he re-drops, but if it touches him after it hits the ground, or rests against him, the ball is played as it lies with no penalty.  In 1984 the current procedure was instituted, and the ball was to be re-dropped if it hit the player at any time before coming to rest.

[iacas]

I hope everyone here who is interested in this reads (and subscribes to via the free email thing) RulesGeeks.com.

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I hope everyone here who is interested in this reads (and subscribes to via the free email thing) RulesGeeks.com.

It’s like a golf Advent Calendar! I have it bookmarked. 

[BruceTeam]

In the old rules or the new rules, in my opinion,  it's best not to take anything too serious at times. 😁

“If you call on God to improve the results of a shot while it is still in motion, you are using "an outside agency" and subject to appropriate penalties under the rules of golf.”

- Henry Longhurst

[PraiseKek]

On 12/19/2018 at 2:04 AM, iacas said:

You can play golf, but you can't bend down part-way to drop a ball?

Not after I tweak my back, no.

On 12/19/2018 at 2:04 AM, iacas said:

No, there's no tolerance. You have to drop from knee height.

Not sure on this, I will get a clarification form the R and A from the national golf association when I get around to it. Just wondered the opinions. I will ask for a medical exemption to drop from a comfortable height. There's no decisions yet. 

On 12/19/2018 at 2:04 AM, iacas said:

Heck, man, just tilt to your right or something - you can reach knee height that way, too.

Tilting to the right is actually what did it. I have a slight list to the left I try to counteract from a back injury some years ago. It's no fun. I lost about 3/4 of an inch in height, and I struggle with long irons quite a bit now. I hit down on my wedges 3.5 degrees, but after 6 iron I have a negative AoA, including fairway woods. Swing changes have helped not get injured as much, but it's a process. 

Quote

So you can bend over to mark your ball on the green, pick it up out of the hole, pick the flag up off the ground, bend over to insert a tee into the ground and place a ball on the tee and the pick the tee up again, etc but you cant bend over to drop the ball from knee height? Doesnt make sense to me. 

Marking is not so bad as squatting actually helps loosen, though I get the luxury of playing with a caddy now to do it for me. Inserting a tee is a big problem for me. This is the most important act in golf that someone else isn't qualified to do, and yes, I have injured myself doing it a few times in the last year doing just that. It's worse than dropping, that's for sure.

I think there are a lot of seniors who will not like the new drop rule for the reasons I have given. As I mentioned before I will ask for a decision from the R and A. I know it might seem crazy to someone who doesn't suffer from back injuries. I'm not putting anyone on here. 

 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, PraiseKek said:

Not sure on this, I will get a clarification form the R and A from the national golf association when I get around to it. Just wondered the opinions. I will ask for a medical exemption to drop from a comfortable height. There's no decisions yet.

Good luck with the medical exemption, but I don't think you're going to get it, and if I were the ruling body, I'd deny it.

Also, you can drop from "knee height" in many, many ways. You can bend over left or right (instead of forward). You can crouch down - the Rule says that you must drop from "knee height," not that your knees have to be at knee height when you drop.

I feel badly for you, but at the end of the day, this is a sport and the rules want people to drop from knee height for a reason.

2 hours ago, PraiseKek said:

Marking is not so bad as squatting actually helps loosen, though I get the luxury of playing with a caddy now to do it for me.

Then squat to drop? You only have to drop from "knee height" - your knee doesn't have to be that height when you're dropping.

[PraiseKek]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Good luck with the medical exemption, but I don't think you're going to get it, and if I were the ruling body, I'd deny it.

In many ways I agree. There should be a universal procedure not open to interpretation like many of these 2019 rule changes.

Quote

Also, you can drop from "knee height" in many, many ways. You can bend over left or right (instead of forward). You can crouch down - the Rule says that you must drop from "knee height," not that your knees have to be at knee height when you drop.

That's a pretty brilliant workaround. I can bring my knee to shoulder height until there is a decision on that it seems. "Craning" my knees is actually what I do to stretch. I still feel that's in opposition to the previous point that I agreed with, it doesn't seem in the spirit. But fighting stupid with stupid often works in life. 🙂

Quote

I feel badly for you, but at the end of the day, this is a sport and the rules want people to drop from knee height for a reason.

The reason is because it is unfairly penal to require a should high drop into mud or a bunker. Dropping at 1mm as it was discussed earlier in the process was useless, as you might as well just place it. I think the wording should be at knee height or above. The only advantage of dropping at shoulder high is more energy for the ball moving out of the drop area. In that case, between knee and waist height would be a good compromise as everybody has different physiology. 

This issue is not the biggest problem with the rules I have, but my experience already shows the lack of thought they put into these changes. There was no quality assurance done. The biggest problem I have with the rules is changing things so that club golfers who already don't follow the rules take even more liberties. Being strict is good. There are too many areas to angle now, especially the entry point of hazards being solely on the player. 

It's not all bad. The best rule change was the penalty for accidentally moving it on a green. I think that should be the rule everywhere as long as the lie can be replaced as it was. Too many questions on oscillations in the rough, and arguments over things that don't affect the result of a competition. Other improvements that could have been done for professional competitions in allowing the modification of penalties from two strokes to one. I think two strokes is too many shots for the default violation when there is so much parity.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

In many ways I agree. There should be a universal procedure not open to interpretation like many of these 2019 rule changes.

Care to talk about these "many 2019 rule changes open to interpretation"?

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

That's a pretty brilliant workaround. I can bring my knee to shoulder height until there is a decision on that it seems. "Craning" my knees is actually what I do to stretch. I still feel that's in opposition to the previous point that I agreed with, it doesn't seem in the spirit. But fighting stupid with stupid often works in life.

You read that backward from how I wrote it.

Knee height is the standard, regardless of where your knees are. So if that's about 15" above the ground, that's where you must drop from. You can't put your knees 2" above the ground (or 5' above the ground) and drop from there. "Knee height" is defined in the Rules: “Knee height” means the height of the player’s knee when in a standing position.

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

The reason is because it is unfairly penal to require a should high drop into mud or a bunker.

Yes, that's part of the reason. The other part: they want to do more to ensure that the ball stays in the relief area and doesn't bounce further away, both to minimize re-drops and placing and to keep the ball closer to the relief area.

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

I think the wording should be at knee height or above.

That wouldn't achieve the second goal of the Rule change, and the player would have to (get to) place more often than if they drop from knee height. So no, there's still a reason for dropping at knee height, and not "or above."

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

In that case, between knee and waist height would be a good compromise as everybody has different physiology.

They KISSed it: knee height, not "knee height or above" and not "knee to waist height." So, every drop is the same, and players aren't manipulating drop heights even by two feet to try to game the system in certain situations.

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

This issue is not the biggest problem with the rules I have, but my experience already shows the lack of thought they put into these changes. There was no quality assurance done.

🤦‍♂️ C'mon man. They put tremendous thought into this, have been working on these for years, and had a pretty long time for commentary. And without being specific in the slightest you slam them with "lack of thought and no quality assurance"?

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

There are too many areas to angle now, especially the entry point of hazards being solely on the player.

Huh?

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

I think that should be the rule everywhere as long as the lie can be replaced as it was.

No, because one cannot accurately re-create the lie elsewhere. On the putting green, the lie is pretty much determined and consistent. They seemingly put more thought and QA into this than you know.

Read the PDF linked to here:

Topics Not Addressed or Changed in 2019 Rules | Rules Geeks

---

Click here and spend ten minutes to read this PDF. (Or, better yet, get the version from the R&A.) The title of the PDF is “Certain Topics or Proposals Not Addressed in the Proposed New R…

2 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

Other improvements that could have been done for professional competitions in allowing the modification of penalties from two strokes to one. I think two strokes is too many shots for the default violation when there is so much parity.

🤦‍♂️ This one's so bad it doesn't need a rebuttal.

[nevets88]

I don't think I saw this in this thread and this looks like is the place where it belongs, hopefully. A short summary of 20 selected changes by USGA/R&A.

[Asheville]

#3 is seriously incorrect. Free relief for an embedded ball is not permitted in a bunker or a penalty area. 

#9 is somewhat misleading. You may not touch the sand immediately behind or in front of the ball.

#11 is incomplete. That refers only to relief for an unplayable lie in a bunker,

#18 should, for most of of us who play without caddies, say that partners are not allowed to help us line up.

I doubt, despite the logos across the  top, that this is a R&A/USGA document.

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Asheville

[nevets88]

17 minutes ago, Asheville said:

#3 is seriously incorrect. Free relief for an embedded ball is not permitted in a bunker or a penalty area. 

#9 is somewhat misleading. You may not touch the sand immediately behind or in front of the ball.

#11 is incomplete. That refers only to relief for an unplayable lie in a bunker,

#18 should, for most of of us who play without caddies, say that partners are not allowed to help us line up.

I doubt, despite the logos across the  top, that this is a R&A/USGA document.

 

Oy, my bad. @iacas, maybe I should take this off?

[Asheville]

Well, 16 out of 20 is 80%. That's not bad. :)

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

I doubt, despite the logos across the  top, that this is a R&A/USGA document.

I agree.

And leaving it here is fine… because a comment correcting it followed pretty quickly.

Thanks @Asheville.

P.S. "through the course"? It's like they're not even trying.

[boogielicious]

It would be a "nice-to-have" to get a one card summary. All they have is a chart now.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/New-Rules/summary-of-main/Summary of Main Changes_2019 Rules of Golf_FINAL.pdf

I think I will make my own and laminate it and put it in my bag for quick reference.

[Shindig]

Played my first round under the new rules yesterday.  Friend dropped from shoulder height three times before remembering the new rule, even as we had discussed it.  We need to look up if it's a penalty.

The part I really like about the new flagstick rule is the situation that used to come up, and came up twice yesterday, where I'm ready to hit a long putt but no one else is on the green yet.  Now I can just hit without having to wander over, pick up the stick, set it down, go back, and get ready.  But the twosome I was paired with believed flag in was worse than flag out, and I didn't feel like having the discussion.  They left it in when I was putting a long one, but once it was out, I didn't feel like slowing down play to ask them to put it back.  It didn't end up mattering as none of my misses scared the hole.

Okay, now I need to read the Rules Geeks post...   

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Shindig said:

But the twosome I was paired with believed flag in was worse than flag out, and I didn't feel like having the discussion.

This is going to be a thing this year: people who know better feeling pressured to willingly give up a legal advantage just because their playing partners are ignorant.

[Missouri Swede]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

This is going to be a thing this year: people who know better feeling pressured to willingly give up a legal advantage just because their playing partners are ignorant.

I I think watching DeChambeau will be interesting, because he knows better and might not cave in.