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Jordan's Improved Lie  

58 members have voted

  1. 1. Did Jordan Spieth "improve his lie" (Rule 13-2) in the video?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      29
    • It's Inconclusive
      25


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I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

The talking heads brought in a rules official who explained it was not a rules violation because the ball never changed position. It simply road up, and down on the grass. In other words the grass underneath moved, but the ball never moved from it's position on the grass. The ball would have to rotate from it's resting position on the grass to be a violation. 

The shot was also brought up at the post round meet with media. When asked, the player said the same thing as the rules official. He also added that it was no big deal, as all the players do it from time to time. I believe his exact words were "we all do it". 

I believe the player was Sergio Garcia, but I might be wrong. It was some years ago.

In the video above, I can't see the ball being moved, or changing position. Hence my vote of "no". 

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  On 4/9/2018 at 9:03 PM, Patch said:

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

The talking heads brought in a rules official who explained it was not a rules violation because the ball never changed position. It simply road up, and down on the grass. In other words the grass underneath moved, but the ball never moved from it's position on the grass. The ball would have to rotate from it's resting position on the grass to be a violation. 

The shot was also brought up at the post round meet with media. When asked, the player said the same thing as the rules official. He also added that it was no big deal, as all the players do it from time to time. I believe his exact words were "we all do it". 

I believe the player was Sergio Garcia, but I might be wrong. It was some years ago.

In the video above, I can't see the ball being moved, or changing position. Hence my vote of "no". 

Expand  

You seem to be talking about a different rule. 18-2 is about moving a ball.

The thread is about 13-2,  improving the lie.


(edited)
  On 4/9/2018 at 9:03 PM, Patch said:

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

The talking heads brought in a rules official who explained it was not a rules violation because the ball never changed position. It simply road up, and down on the grass. In other words the grass underneath moved, but the ball never moved from it's position on the grass. The ball would have to rotate from it's resting position on the grass to be a violation. 

The shot was also brought up at the post round meet with media. When asked, the player said the same thing as the rules official. He also added that it was no big deal, as all the players do it from time to time. I believe his exact words were "we all do it". 

I believe the player was Sergio Garcia, but I might be wrong. It was some years ago.

In the video above, I can't see the ball being moved, or changing position. Hence my vote of "no". 

Expand  

Just for your information, if the ball moves up or down, it has changed position and is a breach of 18-2, even if it still lies in the same nest of grass.  Vertical movement is still moving under the rules. Only if after moving down, the ball then returns to the same place where it was before the movement, can the player escape the penalty.

Edited by Fourputt

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(edited)
  On 4/9/2018 at 9:03 PM, Patch said:

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

The talking heads brought in a rules official who explained it was not a rules violation because the ball never changed position. It simply road up, and down on the grass. In other words the grass underneath moved, but the ball never moved from it's position on the grass. The ball would have to rotate from it's resting position on the grass to be a violation. 

The shot was also brought up at the post round meet with media. When asked, the player said the same thing as the rules official. He also added that it was no big deal, as all the players do it from time to time. I believe his exact words were "we all do it". 

I believe the player was Sergio Garcia, but I might be wrong. It was some years ago.

In the video above, I can't see the ball being moved, or changing position. Hence my vote of "no". 

Expand  

I can't remember who said this either, but I distinctly remember a pro admitting the ball does "move" in the rough when they address it. I know mine often does, in thick rough you really have to address the ball at least 3-4 inches behind it, or hover the club, to NOT move the ball. I rarely see pros hovering or addressing far behind so I assume there is some movement taking place in the rough, though I doubt it is helping them in most cases. 

Edited by Braivo

- Mark

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  On 4/9/2018 at 9:03 PM, Patch said:

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

Expand  

It isn't about the ball moving. It's about less grass being behind the ball now because the golfers has flattened it down.

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For what its worth I also think Mr Spieth played the rules very well at The Open last year when he took that drop behind the bus on the practice fairway. He kind of said to all the officials "this is the line" from on top of the sand dune and none of them checked. I reckon he got a good deal from that.

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Reading the rule, looking at his actions - inconclusive.

I thought intent would have been in there, but no. 

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  On 4/25/2018 at 12:23 PM, Mr. Desmond said:

I thought intent would have been in there, but no. 

Expand  

Intent is in fewer places than most golfers seem to think.

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I guess his name would have to be Patrick Reed to get called on that.

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  • 5 months later...
  On 4/6/2018 at 12:58 PM, iacas said:

Seriously asking: how is that relevant? If Lexi "typically" marks the ball to the side and puts it nearly an inch away… that's okay too? Of course not. Habit isn't relevant if it's breaching the rules.

Expand  

Habit is relevant in this scenario. Imagine you're on the teeing ground and you do precisely what he did in the video. Did you improve your lie? Did you alter the conditions of the area in any way to give yourself an advantage? No way no how. So you can't reasonably assume that if Spieth does this sort of motion before every shot that he's breaking the rules on every shot.So you can't reasonably assume that if Spieth does this motion before this shot that he's breaking the rules on this shot.

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  On 10/8/2018 at 1:47 PM, ejm1994 said:

Habit is relevant in this scenario. Imagine you're on the teeing ground and you do precisely what he did in the video. Did you improve your lie? Did you alter the conditions of the area in any way to give yourself an advantage? No way no how. So you can't reasonably assume that if Spieth does this sort of motion before every shot that he's breaking the rules on every shot.So you can't reasonably assume that if Spieth does this motion before this shot that he's breaking the rules on this shot.

Expand  

Yes you can. A breach is a breach, habitual or not.

And in the teeing area you can improve your lie.

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  On 10/8/2018 at 2:02 PM, iacas said:

Yes you can. A breach is a breach, habitual or not.

And in the teeing area you can improve your lie.

Expand  

I do apologize. You must have missed the part where I mentioned that you cannot reasonably assume that Spieth's motion is a breach of any rule.

Even if it technically breached a rule (it did not), his motion gave him what advantage?

The entire point of rules in sports is to keep a player from gaining an advantage in an unfair way. Spieth did not gain any advantage by doing the motion he did.

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  On 10/8/2018 at 3:01 PM, ejm1994 said:

The entire point of rules in sports is to keep a player from gaining an advantage in an unfair way. Spieth did not gain any advantage by doing the motion he did.

Expand  

No. That is not how it works.

  On 10/8/2018 at 3:01 PM, ejm1994 said:

I do apologize. You must have missed the part where I mentioned that you cannot reasonably assume that Spieth's motion is a breach of any rule.

Even if it technically breached a rule (it did not), his motion gave him what advantage.

Expand  

As @iacas stated: A breach is a breach. One doesn’t decide if the breach gave an advantage or not. A rule is a rule. And a beach of that rule is a breach.

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  On 10/8/2018 at 3:01 PM, ejm1994 said:

The entire point of rules in sports is to keep a player from gaining an advantage in an unfair way. 

Expand  

The entire point of rules (ie penalties) in golf is to keep a player from gaining a potential advantage in an unfair way.


  On 10/8/2018 at 5:58 PM, Rulesman said:

The entire point of rules (ie penalties) in golf is to keep a player from gaining a potential advantage in an unfair way.

Expand  

@ejm1994 this makes a difference. If a player carries 15 clubs and never once touched that extra club, did he gain an advantage? No. Is it a penalty? Yes.

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