Need Help Explaining - Different Tees

[HonestyPolicy]

So we have a very small club. Most are 65+, few are just a little younger. The 65+ guys have all moved to the forward tees mostly because the committee has made a rule that in competition 65+ can play from the forward tees, but those younger must play from the member tees. Because we are so small, we many times can not field different divisions by tee box so we must play against each other from different tee boxes. Our member tees are 68/120 rating/slope and the forward tees are 65/113. Other than the fact that the older guys from the forward tees don't like having to give up 3 strokes of their handicap when playing against the guys from the member tees (per section 3-5 of the USGA handicap manual), they have also come up with another complaint which I need your help in trying to explain to them why they are wrong.

So, the problem started in our Sr Club Champ. Our Sr Club Champion has always been age 55 or older and has always been from the member tees in the past. Since many of the older guys didn't want to move back to the member tees, they just don't play, making participation low. This year our committee decided to move the Sr Club Champ to the forward tees, mainly to try to get the older guys to play but so as not to shut out the guys from the member tees, they made an exception to the 65+ rule and allowed anyone 55 or older to play from the forward tees for Sr Club Champ as well. Now, since the older guys from the forward tees have been giving up 3 strokes of their handicap (section 3-5) when they play against the guys from the member tees, they somehow expected that the guys from the member tees should give up 3 strokes of their handicap when they "move up" to the forward tees. Well in effect they do because section 3-5 is not necessary now since everyone is playing from the same tees, but they don't accept that as an explanation. They say "hey, soandso's handicap is 15 from the member tees, how can it only be 14 from the forward tees, it's a 3 stroke difference not 1 stroke? He should only get 12 strokes if he moves up! Something is wrong!" To top it all off, they asked the Pro to explain and he can't so instead he says "I don't know, something must be wrong with the system." (great response huh?)

So other than telling our Pro to grow a pair and do his job, I'm looking for your help using a brief but accurate explanation. I can do the math, but I loose everyone quickly because (a) I am one of the younger guys, if you can call 63 young, so they think I'm lying to them to help myself, (b) they don't believe the math because the pro told them "somethings wrong with the system", and (c) their attention span is not beyond a few sentences. So I'm looking for a good brief explanation or a link that I can print out and hand to the Pro or hang up at the club bulletin board. You help is greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading this.

Oh, and here's Soandso's handicap calculations:

-Index is 14.1

- Member tees (68/120), calculation is 14.1/113*120=14.9 round to 15

- Forward tees (65/113) calculation is 14.1/113*113=14.1 round to 14

- Yet as you can see the rating is 3 strokes different.

Thanks for your help.

 

 

 

 

[Rulesman]

5 minutes ago, HonestyPolicy said:

 

Oh, and here's Soandso's handicap calculations:

-Index is 14.1

- Member tees (68/120), calculation is 14.1/113*120=14.9 round to 15

- Forward tees (65/113) calculation is 14.1/113*113=14.1 round to 14

- Yet as you can see the rating is 3 strokes different.

Thanks for your help.

 

 

 

 

The Course Rating is for the scratch player not for a player with a higher handicap index.

The slope indicates the relative difficulty of the rated tees for a player whose index is not 0.

The average slope of all courses has been determined as 113.

So as 120 is higher than 113, the member tees are rated as relatively more difficult for the forward tees as the player's index goes upwards.

The forward tees are rated as not as difficult relatively for the higher capper as the member tees for the higher capper.

It is all about the slope.

[MasonAsher2014]

The club I work at doesn’t even use handicaps for it. You must play member tees and lowest gross is crowned senior champion. 

They do a Blue tee and White tee division where the white tees are 600 yards are shorter but only 6 or so guys play in it. No one complains since it’s a gross champ. 

There is a net division for each tee, but they aren’t given a trophy or anything just shop credit. 

[HonestyPolicy]

Yes maybe I should have said this is with regard to "Net play" only. Yes our crowned Sr Club Champ is the gross. This is trying to explain to the guys who play the froward tees for net why a guy who moves up from the member tees handicap only changes by one stroke (in my OP example), not  3 or more as they have it in their minds it should because if a scratch player would be 3 strokes different, then they think a higher handicap should be more.

I'm to the point where I'm thinking they really just want more advantage. I say to them, the USGA and rules of golf have been around for over 100 years with thousands of persons working it so you'd think if there was a problem they'd have found it years ago. No instead some group of guys at some podunk club in the middle of nowhere who don't even own computers or cell phones think they've found something screwed up with this damn ghin computer thing.

Still I try to get them to understand. Maybe they just don't want to understand.

 

 

[Wendy Dominick]

The three stroke difference(based on course rating) only comes into play when players are competing from different tees. When everyone is playing from the same tees they just use their handicap index and determine their course handicap based on the slope. It's no different than if you were playing at a different course with a higher or lower slope rating.

[Club Rat]

We have a similar situation at our club with loss of participation in club events.
What many of the old guys fail to recognize with handicaps is the fact that when a player is entering scores played at a lower rating,
their index reflects a higher score differential creating a "Three Stroke" higher handicap.

And, our club has again changed the requirements allowing members now with age 55 to compete at our White Tees again which does not make older players happy. IMO with a 5800 yard course the club should only allow players who are 64 or 65 and older to play at the White's.  

I feel since many of the older players are not active in our club events, the club is attempting to rejuvenate events with lowing the age requirements to 55 and creating a Pandora's Box and throwing the old guys under the bus.

IMO, my stance has always been to have events at the Members Tees (Blue) and have a separate division for Seniors at the White Tees.
The club has changed requirements every other year and every time lowering the age requirements through the years to play the Whites.

Mixed Tee's competitions have become a cluster "F" and created a sour attitude among members especially since they lower the age requirements to play a 5800 yard course.

[Rulesman]

What's the fuss?

All handicaps will be lower on the lower rated (ie shorter) course and higher on the higher rated (ie longer) course

Edited August 13, 2018 by Rulesman

[HonestyPolicy]

So all of the suggestions we've tried in the past. The higher the rating the more difficulty, yes check. The ratings reflect a scratch golfers performance, yes check. The calculations, yes check. And all else of what was suggested here. Thanks for those suggestions but we've used them all.

Of all the responses, Club Rat seems to get the issues best which center around aging memberships, reduced participation, and competition from different tees vs competition from the same tees.

As some of our members get older and choose to move up to the forward tees, they don't understand (and maybe don't want to understand) how the handicap system and the rules of golf level the playing field no matter what tee you play from or what your age is. It seems that some believe because of their age that there should be some additional benefit (in the form of strokes) given to the older player and if they don't get it they won't play. I Would agree that generally ones age does affect his golfing ability, but one's ability is reflected in ones handicap, so age is reflected indirectly. In the end playing or not playing is certainly one's choice.

Our approach next is going to be to keep competition between those who qualify for the forward tees and the other tees separated by division so those who qualify for the forward tees, can compete against others of the same age. We'll see if this will help to quiet the forward tee guys. Problem is we might end up with just a handful of participants in the further back tees, we'll see.

The best response I've heard yet came from our State Golf Association president after he just explained the system to one of the forward tees players and the player wanted to debate him about it. He said to a player, "well I can explain it to you again, but I can't make you understand it".

He is right. You can't make a person understand something he refuses to understand. Thanks much to everyone who participated in this. I appreciate your time.

 

 

[MacDutch]

Well, I stumbled into this when I was figuring out my usga handicap. There is a big difference between the way usga handles handicaps and the EGA system used in my country (Spain, Netherlands, Germany and others) handles it. 

In my country (EGA) strokes given is a result of the formula where cr. and sr. are both used. In the usga system strokes given is only based on cr, big difference.

I think its odd to only use cr. for strokes given, we in Europe use both cr. and sr. for a reason. 

Why does the usga use both cr. and sr. to determine ones index for the round played and only cr. for strokes given? 

Edited August 14, 2018 by MacDutch

[saevel25]

30 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

In my country (EGA) strokes given is a result of the formula where cr. and sr. are both used. In the usga system strokes given is only based on cr, big difference.

I think its odd to only use cr. for strokes given, we in Europe use both cr. and sr. for a reason. 

Why does the usga use both cr. and sr. to determine ones index for the round played and only cr. for strokes given? 

I think you have that backwards for the USGA. We use slope rating for calculating the course handicap for a round, http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-handicap-calculator.html

I think why it doesn't matter is because you are playing against other golfers. So, typically you subtract the lowest handicap from the rest. 

Example,

Golfer A, has a course handicap of 5
Golfer B, has a course handicap of 8

Golfer A is giving Golfer B 3 strokes.

The equation would be for the EGA,

EGA HDCPb x SR/113 + (CR - PAR) - (EGA HDCPa x SR/113 + (CR - PAR)) = Strokes given

So, the (CR-PAR) cancel out.

[Vinny Cap]

Best part of the whole thread:

The best response I've heard yet came from our State Golf Association president after he just explained the system to one of the forward tees players and the player wanted to debate him about it. He said to a player, "well I can explain it to you again, but I can't make you understand it".

You can lead a horse to water...

[Papa Steve 55]

This is the result of trying to make everybody happy.

[Hacker James]

while I understand course handicap and slope calculations, I don't quite get the rationale from the differences between men and women from the same tee. For example:

Red Tees:  Men 66.0/113  Women 71.9/131

both are playing the same distances and if I understand the handicap system, the differentials are comparing golfers against scratch and bogey players. If a man and woman shoot identical raw scores, it appears to me, the women have the advantage and will have a lower index.  Why?  Physical strength? 

or perhaps I really do not have a good understanding...….

[Hacker James]

50 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

while I understand course handicap and slope calculations, I don't quite get the rationale from the differences between men and women from the same tee. For example:

Red Tees:  Men 66.0/113  Women 71.9/131

both are playing the same distances and if I understand the handicap system, the differentials are comparing golfers against scratch and bogey players. If a man and woman shoot identical raw scores, it appears to me, the women have the advantage and will have a lower index.  Why?  Physical strength? 

or perhaps I really do not have a good understanding...….

oh, never mind...I got that backwards..

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Hacker James

[Rulesman]

8 hours ago, Hacker James said:

Physical strength? 

….

That is one factor (but significant)

In the same way as scratch and bogey men are rated separately, men and women are rated separately.

The difference is that the different ratings for scratch and bogey is (simplicity) expressed as a relative value in terms of a slope on a straight line graph.

The different rating for a scratch man and a scratch woman is simply shown as the Course Rating for a man or a woman.

In theory, there could be a 'slope' for a scratch man playing a scratch woman.

 

[Hacker James]

17 hours ago, Rulesman said:

That is one factor (but significant)

In the same way as scratch and bogey men are rated separately, men and women are rated separately.

The difference is that the different ratings for scratch and bogey is (simplicity) expressed as a relative value in terms of a slope on a straight line graph.

The different rating for a scratch man and a scratch woman is simply shown as the Course Rating for a man or a woman.

In theory, there could be a 'slope' for a scratch man playing a scratch woman.

 

had I used the CH and SLOPE for women, my differential would have been nearly 9 points lower! That seems like a lot, but never really looked closely before.

[Buckeyebowman]

Sandbaggers are sandbaggers! No matter how old they are or what tees they play!

[foxhole88]

Related question here.  If Player A plays the white tees all the time and has a 10 index and Player B plays the blue tees all the time, also has a 10 index.  Then in a club tournament, Player B (Blue Tee) moves up to the white tees that were designated for his flight for a tournament.

 

Does Player B have an unfair advantage?  (Blue Tees are significantly longer, higher rated and higher sloped)  His index has essentially been established from a harder course, now gets to move up to a much easier course setup and play at the same index as Player A.

 

Wouldnt most (not all, but most, majority) players in Player B's situation probably score better in this situation?  Maybe average 4-5 strokes better (maybe a little less)

If Player A had to play Player B 10 times under this scenario, how many times do you think Player A would win a match?  2-3 times out of 10?