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Unknown Penalties  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Read the first post, and answer this: Do you support the lack of any additional penalty strokes for penalties "unknown" to players, despite their responsibility to know, follow, and apply the Rules of Golf?

    • Yes, the USGA/R&A are right to reward ignorance and dishonesty.
      11
    • No, players are responsible for knowing the Rules of Golf, and are now being incentivized to be ignorant and/or dishonest.
      63


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8 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

There's a reason the USGA adopted the rule...it's because the rules can become wildly obscure. Plus, there are know-nothings who can affect another players score with incorrect interpretations.

Yes, the Rules can be "wildly obscure," but when all you have to do is ask the Committee before signing your card, that alone is an incredibly poor reason for the adoption of the Rule. So poor, in fact, that it's almost certainly not "the reason" why they changed this Rule.

And I don't know what "incorrect interpretations" has to do with it.

8 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

While you might think folks will cheat for their own advantage....I've played with folks in competitions that literally make up the rules to cheat another player to their advantage.  Case in point.  I played in a tourney where my ball landed near a prickly bush.  I was told I had to play it despite getting impaled by thorns.  I told the OP that wrapping a towel around my thigh was legal,  he said it was not.  He knew better, but he was testing me to see if I knew the rules.  It goes both ways.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic either. The scenario right there occurred before the 2019 Rules were in effect, and they wouldn't change the outcome of that situation, either. So…?

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Off topic still but I couldn't resist:

On 12/26/2018 at 12:49 PM, Puttin4Dough said:

Really not off-topic.  I'm pointing out that tour players have access to spotters and personal caddie's which could be viewed as an unfair advantage compared to the average golfer.  I take a 2 stroke lost ball while the spotter finds their ball.  i miss a slight break on a green that they don't.  And caddies are like having a golf instructor during every round.  Thus, the allowance for unintentional rule mishaps for the average golfer equal out some of the advantages tour players enjoy.

 

Spoiler

 

The question is "Why do you feel that you should have the same advantage as the pros do?"  This is a rationalization that doesn't fit in the rules, or into the game, as far as I can figure it.  Even with the new changes, the rules are still based on "equity".  Equity is essentially fairness within the set of players who are in a specific competition.  All of the players in a given competition are subjected to the same level of potential advantage or disadvantage from spectators to officials, or the lack thereof.  I can't imagine anything that could be more equitable, and it's eminently fair.  Any possible advantage applies equally to all players in a competition.  

What I don't see is why it makes a particle of difference that they lose fewer balls due to the added number of spotters and spectators.  That changes nothing in respect to the fairness of a given competition.  The rules for play are exactly the same in my club comps as they are on Tour, with the possible exception of a few tournament specific local rules necessitated by Tour broadcast and gallery conditions.  Seems quite proper to me.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Puttin4Dough said:

I know the drill.

No you don't. It's not piling on - it's rebutting your bad ideas…

…which are still off topic for this particular thread.

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For 25 years, I refereed soccer at levels from true beginner to collegiate.  I often heard "I did not know that was a rule."  I would usually reply, "now you do". I then applied the  called for correction. As I moved up levels, people knew the rules, but disagreed with my interpretations, not the rules. 

Much is the same in golf for all the years I have played; I often did not know the rule. And, as such needed to understand the application. I also understood that lack of knowing what I should have known did not mean the penalty would not be applied.

 @iacas,  when I once asked if I properly gave myself a two stroke penalty, he replied I should have taken 4, and, in tournament play would have been DQ'd. Many TSTers joked if I waited until 2019, I could have be saved by saying, "gee, I did not know that was a rule" it  saved me the additional 2 strokes.  I thought they were kidding me. In no other sport I know would lack of knowing the rule would ANY resulting penalty not be applied.

So I agree with @iacas, it is an absurd change.

And, learn the rules and don't act like a 5 year old when it is applied to you!

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When I first read the original post for this topic I wasn't sure how to vote. I've re-read it several times since then. At first I thought it was akin to the TSA agent's question of, "Has anyone placed anything in your luggage without your knowledge?" This is one of the stupidest questions ever asked! If something is done "without your knowledge" how could you possibly "know" anything about it! 

I soon realized that this has nothing to do with the question at hand. The rules of Golf are published, and everyone has access to them. Even in general society, the prevailing opinion is that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Why should Golf be any different?

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2 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

When I first read the original post for this topic I wasn't sure how to vote. I've re-read it several times since then. At first I thought it was akin to the TSA agent's question of, "Has anyone placed anything in your luggage without your knowledge?" This is one of the stupidest questions ever asked! If something is done "without your knowledge" how could you possibly "know" anything about it! 

I soon realized that this has nothing to do with the question at hand. The rules of Golf are published, and everyone has access to them. Even in general society, the prevailing opinion is that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Why should Golf be any different?

Because the powers that be have become soft. Many if not most NFL players don’t know many rules in football. But If they break one it’s a penalty (if they’re caught.) Poor officiating aside. But golf is the one sport where players call penalties on themselves so the committee figures they’ll be nice and assume that no player would ever purposefully breach a rule. I think it’s ridiculous. Know the rules or ask if you have any doubt. 

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I'm late to the party and realize this thread has died for a month, but I have a semi-tangential question. First, I agree with the OP, so no argument from me. Being an engineer, I kind of naturally dive down into the details and process more than I should. So fine, the rule is in place and a player can plead ignorance of a rule. At this point, whether they do it by true ignorance or dishonesty really doesn't matter (it does, but not for this purpose, if you know what I mean). Who keeps track of the players learning experience?

Player A claims ignorance of Rule X. He is now aware of Rule X. How and where is this documented, and who is responsible for making this known to every tournament he plays in in the future? This seems stupid, I know, but in the engineering world, documentation is everything. You never count on people remembering. And I'm not talking about just the pro tours. Everyone in the pro business knows Lexi now knows she can't move her ball, so she can't pull that out again. But what about in the world of club tourneys for money, college, high school, below? Joe Countryclub of Frank Indianahoosier can claim ignorance of Rule X if caught, but 6 months later in the next state, what is stopping them from doing it again? 

If there is a process I am unaware of, I apologize for my ignorance🤔, but nobody has mentioned how anyone is held accountable in the future. The open endedness of the rule is as big a problem as the rule itself, in my opinion. It doesn't just apply to the incident, but should also apply to any future claims of ignorance of Rule X. How can that possibly be managed? 

 

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I voted no. Because if you decide to play the "sport" you should play by the sport's rules. Ignorance of the rule should be treated the same as ignorance of the law. The cops aren't going to let you slide because you claim ignorance of the law. "Gee officer, I didn't know the speed limit was 55mph". You decided to engage in a competitive sport that is governed by rules. Follow the rules. Is it really that hard? Knowledge of the rules of the game is one of the few things you have complete control over. Learn them, then. If it's too much for you, don't compete in officially sanctioned events. Or don't come crying when johnny law points his finger at you. For all the shit you get away with on a golf course, on a daily basis, you probably owe the man a penalty stroke or two anyway. Come back to folk golf, where we don't worry about such nonsense 😉 

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Everybody should have a rule book in their bag, especially professionals.  This is their livelihood and they don't even know the rules around it.  Imagine if we worked like that.  We would be fired.  The USGA and R&A got it completely wrong by permitting players to get away with penalties.  Another simple solution for pro golfers is to try and play every ball as they find it. The less you need to resort to using the rules, the less chance there is of making an error. 

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9 hours ago, pganapathy said:

  Another simple solution for pro golfers is to try and play every ball as they find it. The less you need to resort to using the rules, the less chance there is of making an error. 

Unless they find and hit a wrong ball

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