Hero World Challenge 2018

[DeadMan]

Video:

Not so sure about that. How did he not know it was a double hit?

[boogielicious]

He did not get penalized.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Not so sure about that. How did he not know it was a double hit?

I could see him not being able to feel that. Watch it at real speed. There's leaves, there's sand, there's a bunch of noise right there…

What I don't really love about this situation is that he didn't really make a backswing or start very far from the ball, so I'd have been tempted to explore the idea that he didn't really make a stroke, he more "pushed, scraped, or spooned" the ball.

[Vinsk]

45 minutes ago, iacas said:

I could see him not being able to feel that. Watch it at real speed. There's leaves, there's sand, there's a bunch of noise right there…

What I don't really love about this situation is that he didn't really make a backswing or start very far from the ball, so I'd have been tempted to explore the idea that he didn't really make a stroke, he more "pushed, scraped, or spooned" the ball.

This. Exactly.

[Herkimer]

A few things.  Feherty said "a player always knows when he hits it twice."  How could that be proved?  Feherty also thought that Tiger should have received a penalty.  Then Feherty thought that there was a 1-inch backswing and that he didn't just push the ball forward.  Later Tiger said that he did hit the ball twice.  But no penalty because it could only be seen in super slo-motion.  Then after all that, one of the announcers said that next year the rule will be no penalty for double hits.  Now that took me back a bit.  I can't figure out why that rule was changed.  I guess probably to speed things up and avoid trying to make this kind of determination.  Who remembers poor T C Chen?

Question:  Do you think that if it had been another player then the "pushed, scraped, or spooned" rule would have been invoked and the player would have been penalized?

The announcer said that Patrick Cantlay was only invited to this tournament around Thanksgiving.  It would have been nice if Cam Champ had also gotten an invitation, considering that he's the newest star on Tour right now.  Is this field only by invitation only?  Are the amount of players limited to a certain number?  Couldn't that number be expanded?  I guess there's only enough money for 18 players.  Well, I just wish Cam Champ had been invited.  And maybe he was and declined for all I know.  Is it Tiger's sole decision as to who plays?

[Vinsk]

46 minutes ago, Herkimer said:

A few things.  Feherty said "a player always knows when he hits it twice."

He’s wrong. Palm fronds, sand, very odd stance, noise, barely see the ball...easily couldn’t know if he struck it twice.

Hero Challenge:

Initially, the tournament had a 16-man field composed of the defending champion, the top 11 available players from the Official World Golf Ranking, and four sponsors exemptions chosen by the Tiger Woods Foundation. In 2008, the field was increased to 18 players, consisting of the most recent winners of the four major PGA tournaments, the top 11 available players from the Official World Golf Ranking, the defending champion, and two special exemption players selected by the foundation

Edited December 1, 2018 by Vinsk

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Herkimer said:

A few things.  Feherty said "a player always knows when he hits it twice."  How could that be proved?

It's not something that can be "proved" but generally speaking, when you double hit it in a more "normal" situation, you do know. You feel the impact twice.

Tiger, it could reasonably be believed, couldn't feel that because if you watch it in real time, it's not like a TC Chen double-hit, it happens inside of a fraction of a second and there are bush leaves, sand, etc. being hit or moved at the same time.

2 hours ago, Herkimer said:

Then Feherty thought that there was a 1-inch backswing and that he didn't just push the ball forward.

It was borderline IMO, but he didn't start with the clubhead almost touching the ball and then literally push it. There was a very small "forward motion with the intent to hit the ball."

2 hours ago, Herkimer said:

Later Tiger said that he did hit the ball twice. But no penalty because it could only be seen in super slo-motion.

Tiger said that after seeing the video, he could see that he probably hit the ball twice. He didn't say he felt it hit the clubhead twice.

2 hours ago, Herkimer said:

Then after all that, one of the announcers said that next year the rule will be no penalty for double hits. Now that took me back a bit. I can't figure out why that rule was changed.

Because it's an accident, and the 2019 Rules are a bit more forgiving of accidents like that, like accidentally moving your ball on the putting green, like accidentally stepping on or moving your ball during a search, etc.

This shouldn't be news - the new Rules have been available for comment since… March?

2 hours ago, Herkimer said:

Who remembers poor T C Chen?

Many of us.

2 hours ago, Herkimer said:

Question:  Do you think that if it had been another player then the "pushed, scraped, or spooned" rule would have been invoked and the player would have been penalized?

No.

2 hours ago, Herkimer said:

The announcer said that Patrick Cantlay was only invited to this tournament around Thanksgiving.  It would have been nice if Cam Champ had also gotten an invitation, considering that he's the newest star on Tour right now.

See @Vinsk's post just above mine for the answer there.

[DeadMan]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I could see him not being able to feel that. Watch it at real speed. There's leaves, there's sand, there's a bunch of noise right there…

What I don't really love about this situation is that he didn't really make a backswing or start very far from the ball, so I'd have been tempted to explore the idea that he didn't really make a stroke, he more "pushed, scraped, or spooned" the ball.

Yeah, I suppose. It's just so obvious when you get it in slow motion that it doesn't look too good. You're right, though. There's a lot of other things hitting his club face, including the sand and bush leaves. 

I actually felt pretty okay with him making a stroke, but then I read Decision 14-1a/4:

Quote

14-1a/4

Striking Ball with Half an Inch Backswing

Q.A player's ball lies close to an out of bounds fence, but there is room behind the ball to insert an iron club or a putter and leave a space of half an inch between the ball and the face of the club. If the player plays a stroke with such a limited backswing, is he in breach of Rule 14-1?

A.It is possible to strike a ball fairly with a half inch backswing. However, in most such cases the player would be pushing the ball, contrary to Rule 14-1. In the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, it should be ruled that the player has pushed the ball.

In order to strike the ball fairly, it must be swung at with the clubhead. If the ball is moved by any other method, it has been pushed, scraped or spooned.

If a ball is fairly struck at, there is only momentary contact between the clubhead and the ball or whatever intervenes between the clubhead and the ball.

Tiger clearly had more than a half inch backswing. Not a ton more, but probably an inch or two. The bolded is was is bugging him. I'm not sure there's only momentary contact between the clubhead and the ball. I suppose it seems more than that only in slow motion. However, it does appear like he sort of carried it with his clubface. 

Anyways, the rules officials there decided it wasn't a penalty. So I'm clearly wrong. It's just interesting.

I wonder if this is a bad look for golf at all. Tiger clearly double hit the ball. It's an interesting contrast to, say, football, where something that obvious on video wouldn't be ignored (most of the time).

On another note, this is the second year in a row, right, where there's been an odd rules situation. Wasn't Hideki's thing last year?

Edited December 1, 2018 by DeadMan

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Tiger clearly had more than a half inch backswing. Not a ton more, but probably an inch or two. The bolded is was is bugging him. I'm not sure there's only momentary contact between the clubhead and the ball. I suppose it seems more than that only in slow motion. However, it does appear like he sort of carried it with his clubface. 

Do you feel like it was "pushed" if you watch it in real speed?

19 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

On another note, this is the second year in a row, right, where there's been an odd rules situation. Wasn't Hideki's thing last year?

I think so.

Yep:

[iacas]

Mark Russell:

Quote

“Well, Tiger was under a bush and we did determine that he did make a stroke at it. He didn’t scrape or spoon or push the ball. And when he did that, Tiger said that he did not think he hit the ball twice. Looking at it in the regular speed on a high-definition television, you couldn’t tell that at all, but when you slowed it down to ultraslow motion high-definition television, you could see where the club [sic] did stay on the clubface quite a bit of time and it looked like he might have hit it twice, but there’s no way he could tell that."

 

[pric0721]

I'm relatively new to golf and would appreciate some insight..  Why wasn't it a no-brainer to declare the lie unplayable and take the 1-stroke penalty with a 2-club length drop?

[boogielicious]

4 hours ago, pric0721 said:

I'm relatively new to golf and would appreciate some insight..  Why wasn't it a no-brainer to declare the lie unplayable and take the 1-stroke penalty with a 2-club length drop?

Welcome to The Sand Trap! I was thinking the same thing, but I guess the waste area sand is sketchy.

[DaveP043]

7 hours ago, pric0721 said:

I'm relatively new to golf and would appreciate some insight..  Why wasn't it a no-brainer to declare the lie unplayable and take the 1-stroke penalty with a 2-club length drop?

I probably would have done just that, assuming I could find a place to drop that gave me a real shot.  But Tiger is a different kind of player, he sees possibilities where I wouldn't.  In this case, he saw the potential to get the ball out onto some grass, and maybe he felt reasonably certain his worst result would still have been playable.  Given that possible outcome (he didn't know for sure how it would turn out), and the nature of the event (only semi-serious competition), I can see that taking the risk was a reasonable choice.  As it worked out, Tiger got the ball into the rough, a significant improvement over his likely drop from an unplayable lie.  

[Vinsk]

Too bad there wasn’t a sprinkler in the bush for him to get a free drop...😯

[Zeph]

Tiger currently DFL with a three shot margin. Ouch. Two double and one triple so far through four holes on Saturday.

[David L Yskes]

so i just turned the channel to see this happen in a highlight.........  is this really where Pro Golf is going???   181yd 9iron?????   I mean that's a hell of a shot but damn.............

 

 

[DeadMan]

22 hours ago, iacas said:

Do you feel like it was "pushed" if you watch it in real speed?

I can't tell at all in real speed, but I think I would be satisfied just seeing where the swing started, assuming I hadn't seen the slow motion.

20 hours ago, pric0721 said:

I'm relatively new to golf and would appreciate some insight..  Why wasn't it a no-brainer to declare the lie unplayable and take the 1-stroke penalty with a 2-club length drop?

You'd have to ask him to be sure, but I'm guessing two things:

1. He probably thought he could advance the ball forward, which gains him an advantage over taking an unplayable.
2. Wild guess here, because I haven't looked all that carefully: he probably would have still had to drop in the sand. Dropping in the sand is likely going to result in a fried egg lie. That means he wouldn't be able to get the ball to the green.

[Yukari]

Great to see Tiger finish top 20!

/s