Importance of Strike on Distance

[Patch]

Qestion. Assuming the golfer has a good swing, with a consistent impact position, does the type of club make a difference?

Say a 6i muscle back blade vs a 6i perimeter weighted game improvement club. Same shaft, same swing speed, and same golfer. Would the distances be the same?

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Patch said:

Say a 6i muscle back blade vs a 6i perimeter weighted game improvement club. Same shaft, same swing speed, and same golfer. Would the distances be the same?

They probably won't be. Different clubs have different properties. CG location, dynamic loft, CoR, etc. all affect the shot.

[Don Golfo]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:49 PM, klineka said:

Based on your logic, the amateurs should be much more consistent and accurate because they are swinging slower. That simply isnt true.

I’m not really saying that. Nor do I believe that to be the case. 

[Don Golfo]

On 12/12/2018 at 2:28 PM, saevel25 said:

Sub 11 second 100m isn't equivalent to someone swinging at 110 mph. You are talking about just over 1 second slower than Usain Bolts world record pace.

Sub 11 seconds is no where near Mr Bolt’s speed. He runs sub 10 routinely without looking too challenged (9.58 at best in fact). 1 second in sprinting is massive?  Sub 11 seconds is attainable for the top end of talented high school athletes and county (State) level sprinters?

It’s not a perfect comparison, but it’s probably not that far away either.  Given that a proportion of the world’s top 100 golfers swing a club slower than 110 mph and the majority average 110-115, I’d say that it would be pretty much impossible for 99% of amateur golfers to be swinging anywhere near 110 mph consistently.

[Jrryan97]

I think there is something missing in this discussion.   I keep seeing references to LPGA efficiency, but don’t think anyone has taken into account they have been properly fitted for their equipment.   

I consider myself a recreational golfer who loves the game and may get blasted for the comments I am about to make, but will make them anyway... 

What is my handicap?  Not really sure, I’m guessing there is a high percentage of good and bad players who don’t have an established handicap. I have played on and off my entire life and just really got back into playing 3-4 years ago, and I did the smartest thing ever this summer and took a lesson.     I was tired of being able to hit my driver 265 yards down the middle and not be able to score, any time I had to hit an iron over 120 yards I was lost and unpredictable.   After a bad round, I finally talked to the staff at the pro shop and got the number of the pro who gives lessons, best decision made and best money I have ever spent.  I look back and say why not a lesson earlier, I knew the answers cause I had told them to myself for years thoughts such as these always came to mind;  too expensive, no way I can afford to pay hundreds of dollars a week for several weeks... too embarrassing, lessons are given by pros and a pro will think I’m terrible and just laugh at me...  won’t work,  I’ve been swinging a golf club for years and  not gotten any better,  I’m probably just not talented enough to be a good golfer.    

Boy was I wrong with all those thoughts,  lesson was cheap  less than the cost of a round of golf.   Only one lesson was needed and I have became good friends with the pro who gave me the lesson.   I also have been playing much better and the game is more enjoyable.  So I agree a lesson is important,   But I also think that having the right shaft for my swing speed and spin rate are essential to get the yards needed on the course.

Keeping all my comments in mind I think the original post on this thread is a chicken and the egg problem.     What do you need to learn first ?  To swing a club that fits your swing speed at a fast enough speed for distance while hitting the center of the club face consistently.      

 

 

[Don Golfo]

22 hours ago, ncates00 said:

I'd take a guy who swings really fast over a guy who strikes it solid every time

Why? The thrasher could be throwing the ball in to the woods every other swing? Certainly isn’t going to be much consistency?

[ncates00]

2 hours ago, Don Golfo said:

Why? The thrasher could be throwing the ball in to the woods every other swing? Certainly isn’t going to be much consistency?

Read what we have been telling you- usually a person with speed is already doing a lot right in the swing due to efficiency it requires to swing fast. They’re probably striking it Pretty well too. They might have some face to path issues perhaps. Go and reread what people have told you. 

Honestly the most important thing to me is ball speed (apart from the “cheater pull draw”). That captures both strike and club speed. You want as high ball speed as you can muster and a close range of ball speed. Unless you’re intentionally taking speed off to reduce carry. At least this way you’re not worrying about misses short and long. We can always fix right and left misses but getting pin high all the time- now that’s gold. 

[Don Golfo]

2 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Unless you’re intentionally taking speed off to reduce carry. At least this way you’re not worrying about misses short and long

That’s a good point

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Don Golfo said:

Why? The thrasher could be throwing the ball in to the woods every other swing? Certainly isn’t going to be much consistency?

Why is that your assumption?

Better players swing faster, and faster players are better players, generally speaking.

[gjunkie57]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:01 AM, Don Golfo said:

Many golfers appear to be obsessed with driving distance.  In the drive to increase distance they focus on new drivers, custom shafts and increasing their swing speed. I’d contend that the best way to increase the consistency and length of the tee actually involves improving the way in which they strike the ball.  Average golfers have a swingspeed between 85-95mph.  An averagely poor strike (off centre with a slightly glancing blow) at 85 mph results in a carry of 180-185 yards and barely runs out 195-200 yards in good conditions.  In contrast a pure strike might carry 205 yards and run out past 220 yards. At 95 mph, taking the same approach total driving distance will vary from 230-265 yards. That’s a prize of between 25-35 yards.  Could all the money spent on drivers and shafts be better invested in lessons and understanding how to improve strike and launch conditions?

Yes.  I had a beautiful swing that never had power in the strike zone.  I was swinging from the ground up but I had no understanding of how to deliver the clubhead to the ball. Some lessons and working on path, clubface and ball position changed all of that for me.

[Righty to Lefty]

You will NEVER play good golf if you don't learn to reasonably and reliably strike the ball inline with the CoG of the club because you will never even be able to answer how far you hit a club because strike creates such glaring differences in distance at any given speed. I KNOW that a solid struck 7 iron for me is 175 yards...I plan for that in my intended shot and it never enters my mind that I am going to strike the shot bad...until it happens...after which time I make the slight adjustment and move on to the next shot.   

I think that there is a misconception between PERFECT strikes and a slight misshit.  PERFECT rarely happens in any sport but any competent golfer knows their tendencies and constantly adjusts their strategy to play the game through it's ups and downs as that is the essence of the game. A bad player is bad because of strike and their inability to aim their swing motion at their intended target from driver all way down to putter.  Conversely that is what makes a good player good. Speed is a tool used, but all different speeds can and do play good golf.  Speed for the most part is a natural gift that you have or you don't, but strike is the only part that is the same for everyone from a 3 year old to a tour pro.  You can't even putt from 3 feet if you strike the ball all over the putter face. Strike is the most important factor in golf in my opinion because if you didn't strike it reasonably, then the results are irrelevant, and how much speed you put in to the shot doesn't matter because the shot isn't going to come off as predicted because that information was based off of a prior good strike. Like I said an average strike for me with a 7 iron is 175....not 165 to 180 which is the likely variation that poor to perfect strike will create. Speed is a variable accounted for on all shots...strike is not, and should treated as a constant in the equation. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Righty to Lefty

[rkim291968]

In my specific case, I already have a swing speed to drive about 240 yards (carry + roll).   But mostly, my drives are off centered ones and I lose anywhere between 10 - 30 yards of distance.   I almost (skeptically) thought of going to a  much smaller club head to help me focus on "center" hits.   

[Righty to Lefty]

On 12/12/2018 at 6:40 PM, klineka said:

The same thing can be applied to strike too.

Just because strike can be taught doesn't mean most of the general population has the ability to learn how to strike it as well as the PGA tour pros do, no matter what type of training they take on.

Sure you can...it just depends on how far into your bag you can take it.  I am certain that with some practice that everyone can putt like a tour pro from 3 feet. But what about 6 feet, 20 feet, etc.  I am also sure that with practice most golfers are capable of chipping like a tour pro from say 10 feet from the pin...but what about 20 feet etc.  The same with the rest of the game. 

I played 50 rounds with a former European Tour pro when I was playing to a legit 5 handicap and our games looked very much the same.....until the yardage was between 175 and 225 yards.  At that point I was mostly trying to hit the green and he was still flag hunting.  That being said I hit it much further than he did so things evened out again once the yardage was longer than 225 yards because he then was in the range where he was hitting fairway woods at the green just trying to hit the green and though I was still just trying to hit the green, I was hitting 2 clubs less.  I noticed that the large majority of my game was inline with his except for the point where I was just " just trying to hit the green." Yes his short game was better...but just barely...on every short game shot! He would hit it just a foot or two closer it seemed on every short game shot which in turn increased his % to make on his putt. All this added up to him beating me consistently by 5 ish strokes on most any day. A Pro just does EVERYTHING just a lil bit better than a good player....EVERYDAY !!  

[klineka]

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Sure you can...it just depends on how far into your bag you can take it.  I am certain that with some practice that everyone can putt like a tour pro from 3 feet. But what about 6 feet, 20 feet, etc.  I am also sure that with practice most golfers are capable of chipping like a tour pro from say 10 feet from the pin...but what about 20 feet etc. 

If it was so easy, especially with putting as you make it seem, then why arent golfers of all handicaps making the same number of putts as a PGA tour player? It's not easy, PGA tour players are on another level with their skill set, something that over 99% of amateurs will never reach.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The same with the rest of the game. 

No. No. No. You are severely underestimating how good PGA tour players are and how large of a gap there is in skill level between PGA players and amateurs. I am never going to be as good as a PGA tour player no matter how much I practice. Neither are you. Neither are the vast vast majority of amateur golfers on this planet.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I played 50 rounds with a former European Tour pro when I was playing to a legit 5 handicap and our games looked very much the same.....until the yardage was between 175 and 225 yards.  At that point I was mostly trying to hit the green and he was still flag hunting.  That being said I hit it much further than he did so things evened out again once the yardage was longer than 225 yards because he then was in the range where he was hitting fairway woods at the green just trying to hit the green and though I was still just trying to hit the green, I was hitting 2 clubs less.  I noticed that the large majority of my game was inline with his except for the point where I was just " just trying to hit the green." Yes his short game was better...but just barely...on every short game shot! He would hit it just a foot or two closer it seemed on every short game shot which in turn increased his % to make on his putt. All this added up to him beating me consistently by 5 ish strokes on most any day. A Pro just does EVERYTHING just a lil bit better than a good player....EVERYDAY !!  

I bet if you did a strokes gained analysis for each of you over the 50 rounds, the difference would be much larger than you think. Perception is different than reality. 

You said he would hit it a foot or two closer on every short game shot, each of those are fractions of a stroke that add up over the course of a round. Good chances are he was better in all areas of the game and would gain strokes against you in all areas of the game including driving, as he was likely more accurate than you because he was likely a much much better ball striker

You also stated that he would beat you by 5 ish strokes most days, which would place him right around a scratch golfer. PGA Tour players today are pretty much all +4 or better if they actually kept a handicap.

[saevel25]

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I am also sure that with practice most golfers are capable of chipping like a tour pro from say 10 feet from the pin...but what about 20 feet etc.  The same with the rest of the game. 

100% disagree here. PGA Tour players are better at delivering the clubhead to the ball more consistently because it's an innate ability. I know golfers who could never produce a consistent PGA Tour level accuracy. Is some level of competency trainable, sure. In the end, a portion of that ability is unique to a small group of people.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I played 50 rounds with a former European Tour pro when I was playing to a legit 5 handicap and our games looked very much the same.....until the yardage was between 175 and 225 yards.  At that point I was mostly trying to hit the green and he was still flag hunting. 

175-225 is a huge yardage distance. I would bet that no PGA Tour player will say they are flag hunting at 225 yards. Unless they are having a really good day, which is an outlier case. 

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 A Pro just does EVERYTHING just a lil bit better than a good player....EVERYDAY !!  

They do some things way better than others.

Pro1 = PGA Tour player who shoots 64-71

Am1 = Low Am who shoots 70-83

In putting a Pro1 is 2.2 strokes better in putting, but 9.3 strokes better with the long game.

Even if take the low level Pro2 (shooting 70-79), they are 7.2 strokes better than a low am in long game and only .4 strokes better in putting.

So yea, not just a little better in everything. They are way better in other areas.

[Righty to Lefty]

14 minutes ago, klineka said:

If it was so easy, especially with putting as you make it seem, then why arent golfers of all handicaps making the same number of putts as a PGA tour player? It's not easy, PGA tour players are on another level with their skill set, something that over 99% of amateurs will never reach.

No. No. No. You are severely underestimating how good PGA tour players are and how large of a gap there is in skill level between PGA players and amateurs. I am never going to be as good as a PGA tour player no matter how much I practice. Neither are you. Neither are the vast vast majority of amateur golfers on this planet.

I bet if you did a strokes gained analysis for each of you over the 50 rounds, the difference would be much larger than you think. Perception is different than reality. 

You said he would hit it a foot or two closer on every short game shot, each of those are fractions of a stroke that add up over the course of a round. Good chances are he was better in all areas of the game and would gain strokes against you in all areas of the game including driving, as he was likely more accurate than you because he was likely a much much better ball striker

You also stated that he would beat you by 5 ish strokes most days, which would place him right around a scratch golfer. PGA Tour players today are pretty much all +4 or better if they actually kept a handicap.

I never said it was easy...your own information shows that a scratch golfer is closer to a tour pro than a 90's golfer is to being a scratch golfer. Like I said and like your stats obviously show the Tour Pro isn't dramatically better than the scratch player...but he/she is no doubt better at every aspect to some degree. Watching a Tour Pro and a legit scratch golfer play a round of golf is not going to look as dramatic as you make it seem.  The tour Pro will just do everything a percentage better and after the round will have the better score on most any given day.  I played the rounds....I carried a lead on him twice through 15 holes...but he was steady and knew how to finish and sure he played one of his worse rounds (72) and I played one of my best rounds (73) but he was still slightly better than me on the whole that day.  Hitting one more fairway is 7% better and hitting one more green is 5% better so it isn't a drastic difference if you were to walk around with a scratch golfer and a tour pro when one he is hitting 1 or 2 more fairways and 1 or 2 more greens especially if the scratch golfer hits it further.  You are going to see two good golfers where one just does everything a little bit better. 

He was a +3 and he didn't just mop the floor with me on a daily basis because I was a legit 5 that could shoot my handicap on any course from the tips in any conditions.  The problem was that I didn't shoot much below my handicap. His baseline scores where from 3 under to 2 over with his best days going as low as 8 under.  My baseline scores where 5 to 8 over with my best days being as low as 3 over, which didn't happen very often.  That's why I hit a wall at a 5 handicap and he was a +3.   The margins are so narrow when you are legit scratch or better handicap that there are not glaring differences...but on the whole the better player does EVERYTHING just a little bit better. 

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I never said it was easy...your own information shows that a scratch golfer is closer to a tour pro than a 90's golfer is to being a scratch golfer. Like I said and like your stats obviously show the Tour Pro isn't dramatically better than the scratch player.

You are talking about putting only. A Tour Pro is VASTLY better at ball striking than a scratch golfer.

1 minute ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The tour Pro will just do everything a percentage better and after the round will have the better score on most any given day. 

Not just 1% better. A small percentage for putting and short game, and bigger percentage in long game.

2 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I played the rounds....I carried a lead on him twice through 15 holes...but he was steady and knew how to finish and sure he played one of his worse rounds (72) and I played one of my best rounds (73) but he was still slightly better than me on the whole that day. 

 Your one example, and a specific one were he played poorly and you played really well, does nothing to support your argument. You are cherry picking situations to fit your logic.

3 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Hitting one more fairway is 7% better and hitting one more green is 5% better so it isn't a drastic difference if you were to walk around with a scratch golfer and a tour pro when one he is hitting 1 or 2 more fairways and 1 or 2 more greens especially if the scratch golfer hits it further. 

FIR% and GIR% are not good stats. Lets say two golfers hit the same GIR%, but one golfer is 15 FT closer to the pin on average. That one golfer will probably crush the other golfer.

Are these golfers playing the same course? A PGA Tour player averages 12 GIR a round on tough courses. A scratch golfer averages 10-12 GIR per round, but on substantially shorter courses. If they played a PGA course set up, I would bet they would hit closer to 50% GIR.

[Righty to Lefty]

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

100% disagree here. PGA Tour players are better at delivering the clubhead to the ball more consistently because it's an innate ability. I know golfers who could never produce a consistent PGA Tour level accuracy. Is some level of competency trainable, sure. In the end, a portion of that ability is unique to a small group of people.

175-225 is a huge yardage distance. I would bet that no PGA Tour player will say they are flag hunting at 225 yards. Unless they are having a really good day, which is an outlier case. 

They do some things way better than others.

Pro1 = PGA Tour player who shoots 64-71

Am1 = Low Am who shoots 70-83

In putting a Pro1 is 2.2 strokes better in putting, but 9.3 strokes better with the long game.

Even if take the low level Pro2 (shooting 70-79), they are 7.2 strokes better than a low am in long game and only .4 strokes better in putting.

So yea, not just a little better in everything. They are way better in other areas.

I assure you that I can make 2 foot putts at the same pace that a Tour Pro can...but once you move further away from the hole the differences are more evident.  I completely agree that Tour Pros strike it better than everyone else...but the difference isn't glaring until you add it up at the end of the round or the tournament.  A tour pro is not gaining a shot a hole on another Pro. They are gaining a shot every 6 ish holes by you own graphic and -0.4 is basically scratch.  That is not going to look crazy if you walked with them and watched them play on any given day. But by the end of the round it is 5 shots and by the end of the tournament it is a blowout but that isn't counting one playing his best and the other playing his worst within their given range of scores in relation to their handicap. 

175 to 225 was the point where I was content with just hitting the green and he was not is what I said.  That is the point where me, as a 5 handicap could feel that he was just better at getting the ball on the green and he was closer to the pin almost always than I was from that distance. Oh trust me he was still in flag hunting mode and had every intention of hitting it close...he said that he knew he would strike it pure so his intent was to hit it in there just like he would a 50 yard wedge shot.  That thought processing is exactly what separates the good golfers from everyone else. Even from distance the expectation is the exact same as if the shot were closer. I took a lot from him in that regard to how he attacked the course. His intent was to hit every shot close as long as he could reach the green so his focus was much narrower than mine was.