Tee or No Tee?

[NJpatbee]

On 1/2/2019 at 11:53 AM, p1n9183 said:

I only tee up with my driver and i never hit driver from the deck.
I prefer to hit every other club from the deck, it´s like when i tee up my swing changes and i hit it more upwards like the driver. Nevertheless i hit the ground before the shot in order to create an artificial tee in the ground, like an elevated spot in the grass in order to put the ball above it.

This describes me exactly.  

[Zengolfer]

I always use a tee.  Why not use a tee when you can and give yourself a perfect lie.

[Osnola]

Tee It Up.........

[Fourputt]

I couldn't answer the poll, because "Sometimes" wasn't an option.  I do it most of the time, but it depends on the turf and on what club I'm using.  The tee boxes here at the 9 hole course I play on most weekdays has "lush" teeing grounds, and the grass is thick enough that the ball sits up as if it's on one of those brush tees anyway.  It "feels" funny to try and tee it up when I don't really gain anything from the process.  I also have never been able to figure out how to hit my 7 wood from a tee, and that's my 180ish club, so it's fairly common to play it on longish par 3 holes.

I used to be all in with the "always give yourself a perfect lie when you can" crowd.  I still do when the tee boxes are mowed fairly closely, but I tee very low as Erik said, no more than 1/8" above the grass, and usually the bottom of the ball is still below the tips of the grass blades.

[dbuck]

I tee it up on every tee.

[jimnm]

On a full length course, I always use a tee when it is allowed. 

When on an executive course, I'm usually practicing and will typically not use a tee. I treat my tee shots as if they were approach shots on par 4's.

[Golfingdad]

Only time I don’t tee up is on the pitch and putt.  But it’s because I treat it more as practicing than a real round.  If I was playing a tournament on the pitch and putt is probably tee it up.

[rehmwa]

On 1/2/2019 at 4:01 PM, miggusrises said:

Yeah I get that the ball is always rising from the moment of impact and exerts no force on the ground (compression is a misnomer), but it does feel like it is being squeezed out, and that feeling is stronger when the ball is on the deck. 

It's not an important point, and I don't think there are any quantitative differences in terms of spin or launch (unless there is grass between the ball and clubface).

Ok - you like the feel of the clubhead pushing through the lie...

As for compression being a 'misnomer' - what do you mean?  Though the ball isn't being compressed 'between' the club and another surface as you noted (it's funny when people think that, even more when an announcer says something along those lines), it is being compressed between the club and it's own mass as it accelerates.  High speed vids of impact are the simplist way to get people to understand the difference.  Perhaps you prefer 'deformation' for better clarity?  I'd get that.

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by rehmwa

[boogielicious]

36 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Ok - you like the feel of the clubhead pushing through the lie...

As for compression being a 'misnomer' - what do you mean?  Though the ball isn't being compressed 'between' the club and another surface as you noted (it's funny when people think that, even more when an announcer says something along those lines), it is being compressed between the club and it's own mass as it accelerates.  High speed vids of impact are the simplist way to get people to understand the difference.  Perhaps you prefer 'deformation' for better clarity?  I'd get that.

 

It is actually deforming, not compressing. Compression would be a reduction in the volume of the ball. The ball deforms in these high speed videos as you state.

[rehmwa]

Agreed, we're on the same page. 

alternately, for the normal discussion, the idea of 'compressing' along the one axis is enough for the discussion to be understandable.  Good stuff.

[miggusrises]

1 hour ago, rehmwa said:

Ok - you like the feel of the clubhead pushing through the lie...

As for compression being a 'misnomer' - what do you mean?  Though the ball isn't being compressed 'between' the club and another surface as you noted (it's funny when people think that, even more when an announcer says something along those lines), it is being compressed between the club and it's own mass as it accelerates.  High speed vids of impact are the simplist way to get people to understand the difference.  Perhaps you prefer 'deformation' for better clarity?  I'd get that.

 

I may be wrong, but most of the time I hear people use the word ‘compression’, they are not talking about the short lived deformation of the ball, but are instead referring to the “squeeze” feeling of a properly struck iron. They imagine that this squeeze feeling results from the ball somehow being trapped between the club and the ground and so refer to it as compression. Since no compression of this sort occurs, ‘compression’ used in this context is a misnomer in my opinion. 

[rehmwa]

11 minutes ago, miggusrises said:

I may be wrong, but most of the time I hear people use the word ‘compression’, they are not talking about the short lived deformation of the ball, but are instead referring to the “squeeze” feeling of a properly struck iron. They imagine that this squeeze feeling results from the ball somehow being trapped between the club and the ground and so refer to it as compression. Since no compression of this sort occurs, ‘compression’ used in this context is a misnomer in my opinion. 

For your first sentence, It's kind of both - those that know are talking about the deformation effect and the resulting stored energy and subsequent release.  That does result in a very nice feel ("a properly struck iron"), but mostly just one of a subjective 'great' contact.  If the ball doesn't deform, then it sucks and feels like a rock, if it deforms too much then it's squishy and kind of sucks.  So that's not a misnomer.

For the second sentence - anyone talking about trapping a ball between the ground and club is an idiot.  and yes, major network golf announcers have done just that.  that's a misnomer for sure.

 

There's no reason to use the term compression if it was simply 'nice contact'.  there's a reason one leads to the other

Edited January 8, 2019 by rehmwa

[miggusrises]

1 minute ago, rehmwa said:

no - those that know are talking about the deformation effect and the resulting stored energy and subsequent release.  That does have a very nice feel, but mostly just one of a subjective 'great' contact.

anyone talking about trapping a ball between the ground and club is an idiot.  and yes, major network golf announcers have done just that.

I almost always hear about it when players are hitting mid irons or wedges, and almost never when they hit driver, when the most physical compression actually occurs. So I think that most of the time people are referring to the thing that doesn't happen. 

[rehmwa]

5 minutes ago, miggusrises said:

I almost always hear about it when players are hitting mid irons or wedges, and almost never when they hit driver, when the most physical compression actually occurs. So I think that most of the time people are referring to the thing that doesn't happen. 

I wouldn't be surprised.  I think most golfers don't really care about the why's, just the feels.  And that great if it works for them.   Not for me though. 

The "compress the ball" ad campaign, to me, was a total failure and has led a lot of golfers into misunderstanding the effect.  engineers and salesmen don't talk well to each other....

(For me, it's most blatantly 'feelable' when good vs bad contact happens with long irons more than any other clubs.)  I don't every really use trite phrases like "wow, really compressed that ball" - it sound goofy to me, usually just "that felt really pure/nice/clean"....then I do a little dance.

Edited January 8, 2019 by rehmwa

[miggusrises]

15 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

For your first sentence, It's kind of both - those that know are talking about the deformation effect and the resulting stored energy and subsequent release.  That does result in a very nice feel ("a properly struck iron"), but mostly just one of a subjective 'great' contact.  If the ball doesn't deform, then it sucks and feels like a rock, if it deforms too much then it's squishy and kind of sucks.  So that's not a misnomer.

I mean, technically the golf ball always deforms a little, even on a putt! The information that the ball has been struck has to propagate to the centre of mass by some mechanism.

But you're right, it is definitely possible to get a ball that deforms too much, and matching up your club head speed to the type of ball does result in a better feeling than hitting a ball that is too soft. I just never see compression used in this context, but everywhere is different. 

With regards to the feeling difference, the 'compressing the ball against the ground' feeling only really comes when there is a reasonable angle of attack, and is a different sensation to when the ball is picked cleanly off the turf. So thats why I think it generally applies to wedges and mid irons, and wouldn't feel it as much with the long irons. 

[rehmwa]

12 minutes ago, miggusrises said:

 the 'compressing the ball against the ground' feeling

IMHO - You're talking about club vs lie interaction and overall clean ball contact for those shots.  But....if the illusion of that helps....then cool, I'm a fan of whatever 'feel' works for people.

It's been a good chat.  But I'm not going any farther with that aspect - I've made my point => This "compression/ground" idea is not a real thing.  Compression/deformation of the ball during contact as a concept has a real basis.

Edited January 8, 2019 by rehmwa

[Fourputt]

20 hours ago, rehmwa said:

IMHO - You're talking about club vs lie interaction and overall clean ball contact for those shots.  But....if the illusion of that helps....then cool, I'm a fan of whatever 'feel' works for people.

It's been a good chat.  But I'm not going any farther with that aspect - I've made my point => This "compression/ground" idea is not a real thing.  Compression/deformation of the ball during contact as a concept has a real basis.

I always used to call it "pinching" the ball.  I realize that isn't what happens, but it's more of a mental key to help keep my hands ahead of the clubhead, and to strike the ball before the bottom of the swing path.  The "feel" is that I'm trying to pinch the ball between the club and the ground, even though it never actually happens.

[buttputt40]

Yes compression is part of the reason why I do not tee on  on 200 yards or less. It vibrates hard through my arms.