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Questions For My Rules Seminar (2019)

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9 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

So they want the player to run to the clubhouse and retrieve the part then?

Someone can bring them an assembled club. Like always. This isn’t really a change.

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1 minute ago, iacas said:

Someone can bring them an assembled club. Like always. This isn’t really a change.

Ok, thanks. I was thinking more along the line of a broken shaft with the same head.

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7 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Ok, thanks. I was thinking more along the line of a broken shaft with the same head.

If the player broke it he can’t replace it.

(Basically.)

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Enjoy the seminar!

A question for the seminar, if you want to get into it is about advice and the new addition of “intent” in the definition. 

Example: Last year’s rules. Playing a par 3 into a massive headwind. I hit 5 iron and come up woefully short. I say, as a joke to my friend/fellow competitor, “You should be hitting driver” when I see he has an iron out. 

Last year, 2SP for advice. 

This year, would I be off the hook because my INTENT was a joke, not actually meaning my FC should hit driver on this 150 yard par 3. 

Last year’s rules stated any comment that MAY influence another player’s shot selection was advice. This year:

Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is INTENDED TO INFLUENCE a player”. 

Changing “may” to “intended” seems to be a big change in the Advice definition. If you could find out from the bigwigs that that was the way it is “intended” (couldn’t resist) to be read, I’d greatly appreciate it. 

Have fun!

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16 hours ago, boogielicious said:

So they want the player to run to the clubhouse and retrieve the part then?

It says ‘or having parts brought to him or her.’ So no.

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If you get this while the workshop is still on, I'd like to submit a question.  This is apparently from some version of a USGA rules quiz, picked up from a thread at the Golf Rules Discussion forum.  

Quote

In stroke play, after a one-minute search, the player returns to the spot in the fairway from which she had made her previous stroke and drops a ball having declared her intention to play a provisional ball. The player's original ball is then found by a spectator before the three-minute search period ends and before the player has made a stroke at the dropped ball. Which one of the following is correct? (Ref# 631)

  • The player may elect to play either the dropped ball, under penalty of stroke and distance, or the original ball without penalty.
  • The player must abandon the dropped ball and, without penalty, continue play with the original ball.
  • The player must continue play with the dropped ball, under penalty of stroke and distance.
  • If the player continues with the original ball, she gets the penalty for playing from a wrong place.

Correct answer The player may elect to play either the dropped ball, under penalty of stroke and distance, or the original ball without penalty.
Explanation Rule 18.1; Rule 18.3b

My issue is that with the old rules, once you started to search, you abandoned the opportunity to play a provisional ball.  There was good logic to that prohibition, since the whole reason for a provisional ball is to save the time required to return to the original spot.  Apparently, that logic is no longer considered useful.  I'd sort of like to hear how they came to the idea of dropping that very reasonable condition.

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10 hours ago, Augster said:

A question for the seminar, if you want to get into it is about advice and the new addition of “intent” in the definition.

That’s already on my list. Been there for weeks.

Rick, I’ll ask.

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Rick the answer for you is that under 27-2 there was a Decision saying the player was playing under an improper rule but they allowed you to play either ball. Effectively you’re playing under stroke and distance anyway which you’re (almost) always allowed to do.

You had to have said “provisional” though otherwise you were putting a ball in play with no option to play the found original.

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45 minutes ago, iacas said:

Rick the answer for you is that under 27-2 there was a Decision saying the player was playing under an improper rule but they allowed you to play either ball. Effectively you’re playing under stroke and distance anyway which you’re (almost) always allowed to do.

You had to have said “provisional” though otherwise you were putting a ball in play with no option to play the found original.

Okay... after  closer look I see what's being said there.  The way it's worded, it's easy to misinterpret it that he's playing the second ball as a provisional ball.  I had to read it about 4 times before it dawned on me that if he played a stroke with the second ball, it was NOT a provisional ball but was then the ball in play under stroke and distance.  That works, and despite the different phrasing, the rule is still basically the same... you can't go forward, then return to the original spot and still play a ball from there as a provisional ball. 

It may take me a little while to wrap my head around some of the newer phrasing.  I had gotten so used to the legalese in the old rules that the more freewheeling terminology of 2019 is going to keep tripping me up for a while.  It's hard for an old man to learn a whole new rule book.  I'm just glad that I'm not refereeing any more, so when I screw up, it's only my own score that's affected. :8)

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On 3/14/2019 at 7:59 PM, iacas said:

I'm adding the Harold Varner III situation and Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1. Though I think the HVIII situation was ruled correctly, because the shaft was being carried around for him by the walking scorer (and the caddie knew), but 4.1b(4)/1 strikes me as odd:

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=interp&section=rule&rulenum=4&subrulenum=10

4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.

For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player’s locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer’s truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be “carried by anyone for the player during the round ” and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else.

If the parts are brought to you, they have been “carried” to you.  They must reword the rule.

So my friend retrieves parts (legally) and brings them to me. By the time he reaches me- he has carried them around the course. That breaks the rule in its wording. That’s why they must fix it.

IF SOMEONE IS GOING TO ADD A CLUB DURING COMPETITION

-I think you should have to declare exactly the club and specs before your first tee shot. I understand it is to stop ppl from building a club based on conditions/how the day is going. So “announce” the replacement, and who cares how it’s carried.

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31 minutes ago, Slim_Pivot said:

If the parts are brought to you, they have been “carried” to you.  They must reword the rule.

I don’t agree. It says carrying clubs FOR you.

For and to are the operative words. Not “carried.”

Antway I’ve yet to ask this. Rule 4 is in the afternoon.

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16 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don’t agree. It says carrying clubs FOR you.

I agree.  The wording seems to say that the person is essentially performing the duty of a caddie by carrying equipment implicitly designated for play.  You can't have anyone carry the parts for a club which would result in having more than 14 clubs so designated, any more than you can have that person carry an extra club "just in case".  I'm thinking that the rules would view that as carrying too many clubs. 

You also can't have more than one caddie at any time, so there is that issue as well if you are already using a caddie in the usual fashion.   

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32 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I agree.  The wording seems to say that the person is essentially performing the duty of a caddie by carrying equipment implicitly designated for play.  You can't have anyone carry the parts for a club which would result in having more than 14 clubs so designated, any more than you can have that person carry an extra club "just in case".  I'm thinking that the rules would view that as carrying too many clubs. 

You also can't have more than one caddie at any time, so there is that issue as well if you are already using a caddie in the usual fashion.   

But if the player only has 13 clubs, then that’s not an issue. It will be interesting to see how they reconcile the Interpretation with the Rule. They clearly intended the Interpretation to be used to allow some action during a round. But other than the shaft being carried by the scorer (or whoever) instead of “brought” out later, it still appears to me that the HV3 situation would have applied—if not, then what action during the round is the Interpretation allowing?

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15 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

But if the player only has 13 clubs, then that’s not an issue. It will be interesting to see how they reconcile the Interpretation with the Rule. They clearly intended the Interpretation to be used to allow some action during a round. But other than the shaft being carried by the scorer (or whoever) instead of “brought” out later, it still appears to me that the HV3 situation would have applied—if not, then what action during the round is the Interpretation allowing?

It would still be an issue if he has a caddie carrying his bag, and a scorer carrying the extra club or component, as he would be technically using 2 caddies.

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39 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

It would still be an issue if he has a caddie carrying his bag, and a scorer carrying the extra club or component, as he would be technically using 2 caddies.

I see your point. Should HV3 have had a penalty for that too (but it was overlooked while sorting through the club building issue)?

Edited by Missouri Swede

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3 hours ago, iacas said:

I don’t agree. It says carrying clubs FOR you.

For and to are the operative words. Not “carried.”

Antway I’ve yet to ask this. Rule 4 is in the afternoon.

I made that point not because of PGA golfers being penalized but for JR tournaments. 

I remember some messed up rulings my competitors were forced into, but we were kids so what do you do when adults say wrong stuff and disagree.

I just remembered a couple of those situations and could totally see one of those type ppl saying “that was carried for you. penalty strokes!” And what is the JR golfer to do or say. 

In the end it’s not going to effect me, so I don’t care that much.

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5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

If you get this while the workshop is still on, I'd like to submit a question.  This is apparently from some version of a USGA rules quiz, picked up from a thread at the Golf Rules Discussion forum.  

My issue is that with the old rules, once you started to search, you abandoned the opportunity to play a provisional ball.  There was good logic to that prohibition, since the whole reason for a provisional ball is to save the time required to return to the original spot.  Apparently, that logic is no longer considered useful.  I'd sort of like to hear how they came to the idea of dropping that very reasonable condition.

Please be patient as I’m not a rules expert. Isn’t this quite affected by the venue and tour vs municipal Saturday round? On tour for many golfers the second the ball hits the ground there can be dozens of people searching for your ball. With no one on the hole but you or your group it’s quite a different search as walking to the general area isn’t really ‘searching’. When does the time actually start to consider one to be ‘searching’? 

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6 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

When does the time actually start to consider one to be ‘searching’? 

It’s the same as on the Tour - when you get to the area where your ball is likely to be.

Let’s limit the discussion to my list since I’m in my seminar now.

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