Hole cut on extremely steep part of green?

breadcrumbsins · June 18, 2015

On the first hole of a course I played recently, the hole was cut on the downslope of a false front so steep the only way the ball would not roll off the front of the green was if it went in the hole. I hit 4 puts some that stopped short others that went past the hole, all rolled back off the green to the original putting position. A ball could not even be placed or marked hole-high without rolling off the green. What's the rule for something like this? Other than it just being a bad hole location? Thought something like this happened in a U.S. Open maybe 15 years ago.

**SavvySwede** · June 18, 2015

On the first hole of a course I played recently, the hole was cut on the downslope of a false front so steep the only way the ball would not roll off the front of the green was if it went in the hole. I hit 4 puts some that stopped short others that went past the hole, all rolled back off the green to the original putting position. A ball could not even be placed or marked hole-high without rolling off the green. What's the rule for something like this? Other than it just being a bad hole location? Thought something like this happened in a U.S. Open maybe 15 years ago.

The guy cutting the holes probably didn't have a clue what he was doing. It can happen when the person doing it doesn't play golf themselves. Not something that would ever happen in a U.S Open. I cut the holes at my course and when we hosted the U.S Senior Women's Amateur there were always 2-3 USGA officials with us checking the hole locations from every angle and hitting putts before the hole was cut. They have a very thorough process.

**MrFlipper** · June 18, 2015

The guy cutting the holes probably didn't have a clue what he was doing. It can happen when the person doing it doesn't play golf themselves. Not something that would ever happen in a U.S Open. I cut the holes at my course and when we hosted the U.S Senior Women's Amateur there were always 2-3 USGA officials with us checking the hole locations from every angle and hitting putts before the hole was cut. They have a very thorough process.

Sorry to burst your opinion of the USGA, but yeah, it did happen.

18th at Olympic, the way back left pin placement, in 1997 or 1998, whenever they had the open then. Lots of folks would putt up to the hole and it would come back 10-20 feet if it didn't go in. As I recall Payne Stewart was one of those who had a big cow about it. Maybe first or second round, don't remember exactly.

The USGA took a lot of grief over that.

And it's just a bad location, no rules involved, just keep going.

**Pretzel** · June 18, 2015

Sorry to burst your opinion of the USGA, but yeah, it did happen. 18th at Olympic, the way back left pin placement, in 1997 or 1998, whenever they had the open then. Lots of folks would putt up to the hole and it would come back 10-20 feet if it didn't go in. As I recall Payne Stewart was one of those who had a big cow about it. Maybe first or second round, don't remember exactly. The USGA took a lot of grief over that. And it's just a bad location, no rules involved, just keep going.

John Daly hit two or three chips that ran back at his feet to that pin location before he walked up and smacked it across the green while it was still moving.

**SavvySwede** · June 18, 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavvySwede

The guy cutting the holes probably didn't have a clue what he was doing. It can happen when the person doing it doesn't play golf themselves. Not something that would ever happen in a U.S Open. I cut the holes at my course and when we hosted the U.S Senior Women's Amateur there were always 2-3 USGA officials with us checking the hole locations from every angle and hitting putts before the hole was cut. They have a very thorough process.

Sorry to burst your opinion of the USGA, but yeah, it did happen.

18th at Olympic, the way back left pin placement, in 1997 or 1998, whenever they had the open then. Lots of folks would putt up to the hole and it would come back 10-20 feet if it didn't go in. As I recall Payne Stewart was one of those who had a big cow about it. Maybe first or second round, don't remember exactly.

The USGA took a lot of grief over that.

And it's just a bad location, no rules involved, just keep going.

Interesting. Perhaps this prompted the USGA to test the hole locations like they do now.

**Asheville** · June 18, 2015

Google the USGA publication, How to Conduct a Competition . You should find a pdf. See page 48.

**SavvySwede** · June 18, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

Google the USGA publication, How to Conduct a Competition . You should find a pdf. See page 48.

Nice find.

Quote:

From page 48 of How to Conduct a Competition

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole"

**Rulesman** · June 19, 2015

The R&A; says

An area of two to three feet around the hole should be as level as possible. Effort should be made to ensure that holes are not positioned within three paces of a very severe slope or ridge or of a recently used hole. If the design of the green dictates that the hole be positioned on a slope, the hole should be cut vertically, not with the slope. A player putting from above the hole should be able to stop the ball near the hole.

**inthehole** · June 19, 2015

saw that once at Berkshire Valley #6 ... found a ranger & he said EVERY group complained about it & they had a young guy cutting holes & it wouldn't happen again. It's common sense not to put a hole on a high sloped area ... sheesh

**RickK** · June 26, 2015

We had something similar happen in my tournament league a couple of years ago. We were standing in fairway waiting to hit up to the green and the group ahead was moving all around and taking forever. When we hit up, we realized why. The hole was in an almost impossible position. In the tournament, there were lots of 3,4 and 5 putts on that hole. When the round was over, I went in and asked the pro..."Did you get any complaints about the pin placement on hole #1?" Loved his response..."Yes we did but there was a tournament ahead of your tournament and once we realized the problem it was too late to make the change." Made sense but still it was very aggravating.

**Perfect Slicer** · June 29, 2015

One of the owners of my little local public course will set up a pin like this during scrambles. We have a green that has a severe back to front slope, with a flat area at the back and down at the bottom. You can't place the ball on the slope without it rolling to the bottom. For scrambles, he will sometimes place the hole in the middle of the slope and hang out there for the day laughing at every group. If you hit it to the top level, the ball will not go in the hole on the way down. It picks up too much speed and skates right over the top of the hole. You have to be at the bottom and make a minimum 25 footer, or it will be back at your feet.

**SavvySwede** · June 29, 2015

One of the owners of my little local public course will set up a pin like this during scrambles. We have a green that has a severe back to front slope, with a flat area at the back and down at the bottom. You can't place the ball on the slope without it rolling to the bottom. For scrambles, he will sometimes place the hole in the middle of the slope and hang out there for the day laughing at every group. If you hit it to the top level, the ball will not go in the hole on the way down. It picks up too much speed and skates right over the top of the hole. You have to be at the bottom and make a minimum 25 footer, or it will be back at your feet.

Sounds like a terrible businessman. One day he'll wonder why nobody books an outing at his course anymore.

**Perfect Slicer** · June 29, 2015

Sounds like a terrible businessman. One day he'll wonder why nobody books an outing at his course anymore.

Two brothers own the course. One runs the business end and one runs the course. They're great guys to their buddy's, but pretty much jerks to everyone else. They play every afternoon and run through everyone on the course. When they're ready to hit, they yell at the group ahead to get out of the way and they play through.

Our company stopped holding their annual scramble there for a few years after the one of the owners bitched at my companies President (unknown to him) to speed it up during our scramble. We had rented the course for the entire day, but he wanted to make a few more bucks.

**DrvFrShow** · June 29, 2015

One of the owners of my little local public course will set up a pin like this during scrambles. We have a green that has a severe back to front slope, with a flat area at the back and down at the bottom. You can't place the ball on the slope without it rolling to the bottom. For scrambles, he will sometimes place the hole in the middle of the slope and hang out there for the day laughing at every group. If you hit it to the top level, the ball will not go in the hole on the way down. It picks up too much speed and skates right over the top of the hole. You have to be at the bottom and make a minimum 25 footer, or it will be back at your feet.

On a hole cut like this, tournament organizers should just put an automatic two putt rule in. That would shut him up.

**turtleback** · June 30, 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect Slicer

One of the owners of my little local public course will set up a pin like this during scrambles. We have a green that has a severe back to front slope, with a flat area at the back and down at the bottom. You can't place the ball on the slope without it rolling to the bottom. For scrambles, he will sometimes place the hole in the middle of the slope and hang out there for the day laughing at every group. If you hit it to the top level, the ball will not go in the hole on the way down. It picks up too much speed and skates right over the top of the hole. You have to be at the bottom and make a minimum 25 footer, or it will be back at your feet.

On a hole cut like this, tournament organizers should just put an automatic two putt rule in. That would shut him up.

Alas, not an allowable local rule.

Bankruptcy will take a little longer, but will do the job.

**saevel25** · June 30, 2015

What I hate is, you usually end up where if you don't get the ball to the hole the ball will roll back. As soon as you hit it above the hole it will stay there.

Some options that the committee can take with regards to an excessive pin position.

33-2b/1.5

Committee Wishes to Move Hole During Stroke-Play Round Due to Severity of Location

Q.During a round in a stroke-play competition, the Committee discovers that one of the holes is positioned such that the ball will not stop near the hole due to the severity of the slope at the hole. As a result, the majority of players who have played the hole have taken an excessive number of putts to hole out. What are the Committee's options in such circumstances?

A.There is no good solution in such a case, and the Committee, taking into account all factors (e.g., how severe the hole location is, how many players have completed play of the hole and where the hole is in the round), should take the course of action that it considers to be the fairest to all the players. In the circumstances described, the following are examples of actions the Committee may take:

(a) Have play continue with the hole location unchanged on the basis that the conditions are the same for all players in the field;

(b) Keep the hole in the same location but take some action, e.g., watering the putting green between groups, to make the hole location less severe;

(c) Declare the round null and void and have all players start the round again.

(d) Suspend play, relocate the hole and have the players who played the hole return at the conclusion of their rounds to replay the hole. The score for the hole for these players is the score achieved when the hole is replayed;

(e) Have all players disregard their score for the hole in question and play another hole (whether on the competition course or elsewhere) for their score for the hole.

Options (d) and (e) should be taken only in extreme circumstances because they alter the stipulated round for some or all players.

Option (b) was the USGA's option during the US Open at Shinnecock.

Basically you either (a) just suck it up and play the hole and pick up at your ESC. You quit your round (c). You skip the hole, come back out the next time you play and replay the hole when it has a more fair pin placement and count the hole for both rounds (d). You piss off the course by playing a 19th hole (e).

If this is the case, if you are playing a casual round, I would probably mark down most likely score. If I was on the green in two, I would try to take a putt at it. If the ball rolls an unreasonably distance away from the hole I would pick up and move on. Unless you are something like 60 feet away. I would putt once, then putt again, and if not then pick up and mark down a bogey.

**WUTiger** · June 30, 2015

In our last area amateur circuit outing, the tournament organizers "threw out" hole No. 13. The cup had been cut at the center of a finger ridge, and the ball would go up to the cup, and roll back down to where it came. Or, it would go past the cup and roll about 12 feet down hill. The first group had two three-putts and a four-putt. The second group had a similar fate, except for one person who managed a birdie.

Solution: Following groups skipped 13. Then, after finishing No. 18, everyone replayed No. 1 and used that score for No. 13.

**DrvFrShow** · June 30, 2015

Alas, not an allowable local rule.

Bankruptcy will take a little longer, but will do the job.

We have a hole like this, too. I've seen the hole in this placement once. If I see it again. I will suggest that dues to this fact that we toss the hole and replay 16, also a par 4 and easily walkable from that location. Hole 1 is a par 5. The 16th green also puts us in a location where it's easy to get to the clubhouse.

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Hole cut on extremely steep part of green?

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