Rule situation: wrong ball vs. provisional

[DrvFrShow]

I use a blue line around the ball (for putting) and an additional mark. Every ball in my bag is marked like that. It makes the ball easier to find because where I play people can't tell the difference between a Pinnacle and a Callaway, but they won't hit a ball with a flower on it

So if I'm player A, and I hit my shot and it hits a tree and drops down. And player B hits a shot and it hits the same tree but goes out of bounds. Player B is in a cart, and I'm walking. Player B gets to the tree, finds my ball and hits his/her shot onto the green. So when I get to that spot and cannot find my ball, I go back to the tee and rehit. The error, due to the ball marking is discovered on the green.

1. Player B gets penalized 2 strokes for playing the wrong ball, then disqualified for committing a serious breach under rule 20-7c.

2. I get penalized 2 strokes for losing my ball because it took longer than 5 minutes to figure out the problem, instead of being allowed to go back and hit from the spot as near as possible to where my first shot landed.

I hate the rule.

[Martyn W]

3 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

I use a blue line around the ball (for putting) and an additional mark. Every ball in my bag is marked like that. It makes the ball easier to find because where I play people can't tell the difference between a Pinnacle and a Callaway, but they won't hit a ball with a flower on it

So if I'm player A, and I hit my shot and it hits a tree and drops down. And player B hits a shot and it hits the same tree but goes out of bounds. Player B is in a cart, and I'm walking. Player B gets to the tree, finds my ball and hits his/her shot onto the green. So when I get to that spot and cannot find my ball, I go back to the tee and rehit. The error, due to the ball marking is discovered on the green.

1. Player B gets penalized 2 strokes for playing the wrong ball, then disqualified for committing a serious breach under rule 20-7c.

2. I get penalized 2 strokes for losing my ball because it took longer than 5 minutes to figure out the problem, instead of being allowed to go back and hit from the spot as near as possible to where my first shot landed.

I hate the rule.

Why is he DQ? He did not play from a wrong place, he played a wrong ball.

[Rulesman]

20 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

The error, due to the ball marking is discovered on the green.

1. Player B gets penalized 2 strokes for playing the wrong ball, then disqualified for committing a serious breach under rule 20-7c.

 

The competitor must correct his mistake by playing the correct ball or by proceeding under the Rules. If he fails to correct his mistake before making a stroke on the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the round, fails to declare his intention to correct his mistake before leaving the putting green, he is disqualified.

[turtleback]

On 11/8/2015, 2:24:21, sjduffers said:

I played a tee shot on a steep drop-off fairway with limited visibility of the landing area. It goes to the left a bit, and since there is OB further left, I also play a provisional.  A fellow competitor hits a drive that barely goes around a tree and the beginning of the landing area.  We all proceed down to our balls and the guy mentions hit "his" ball, as it lies nearby that tree in question.  I look for my ball for a while, can't find it and go hit the provisional in the fairway.  However, the lie is a very steep side-hill lie that wants to send the shot left where the road and OB waits. I compensate too much and sail 3 balls straight into the forrest on the right of the green, before I finally wise up and club down and put one in the front bunker, from which I get out and 3-putt for a smooth 14.  Meanwhile the guy gets to where his second shot lies, maybe 80 yards from the green and asks me what kind of ball I use.  Weird, huh?  I go over and it's the ball I used in my first tee shot: he hit the wrong ball!  All he saw was a red mark on the ball and he assumed it was his: it's not the same brand of ball (Titleist vs. Bridgestone), the same number or even the same type of mark: his has a huge red mark covering several dimples and mine has 2 red-filled dimples on each side of the ball. How can one not notice? I don't know but that's not the point...

I tell him we should go back there and should rectify the situation and add 2 strokes to his score, but the next group has already teed off and is at or past that spot.  So he drops a new ball (in the wrong spot, but we can't go back, we think....) and finishes the hole and we add 2 to his score for the wrong ball.

My question is, assuming that we could (and should) have gone back there, for him to look for his actual ball (or go back still further to the tee to rehit if not found), should I have been entitled to play my first ball from its initial spot and effectively cancel not only the provisional but all the bad stuff that happened with it, potentially resulting in a 5 or 6 on this par 4 instead of a 14?  In other words, does a wrong ball situation override the fact that after I hit my provisional, it became my ball in play?

This is a screwy situation, but the underlying reality is that you were not really affected in the least by the guy hitting your ball (other than, perhaps, mentally) .  You said yourself that it wasn't where you thought your ball would be - so if the fellow competitor hadn't hit a ball in that area no one would have looked for ANY ball there, and your ball would have not been found anyway.  You didn't find your ball where you thought it would be and so you played your provisional.  IOW, the FC hitting the ball did not in any way prevent you from finding your ball in the circumstances you've described.  It might under OTHER circumstances, but not these.  

Thought experiment:  exact same events except we eliminate your fellow competitor from the picture altogether.  Would you have found your ball?  Since you say it was someplace you never expected it to be I think the answer is clearly no.  

[DaveP043]

49 minutes ago, turtleback said:

This is a screwy situation, but the underlying reality is that you were not really affected in the least by the guy hitting your ball (other than, perhaps, mentally) .  You said yourself that it wasn't where you thought your ball would be - so if the fellow competitor hadn't hit a ball in that area no one would have looked for ANY ball there, and your ball would have not been found anyway.  You didn't find your ball where you thought it would be and so you played your provisional.  IOW, the FC hitting the ball did not in any way prevent you from finding your ball in the circumstances you've described.  It might under OTHER circumstances, but not these.  

Thought experiment:  exact same events except we eliminate your fellow competitor from the picture altogether.  Would you have found your ball?  Since you say it was someplace you never expected it to be I think the answer is clearly no.  

I'm not sure I agree completely with this.  Only the OP knows for sure, but it seems entirely possible that he would have walked along the flight of the ball and stumbled onto his original there, or perhaps his original was in plain sight, so he would have found it no matter what.  If the FC had said "Here's a ball, its not mine, what are you playing?", the OP may have had the chance to play it.  As it turns out, he didn't have the chance to find it because it was already gone when he got close.  Like I said, only the OP knows for sure.

[DrvFrShow]

Well I've been in a situation where on my 7th hole hit a tee shot. I thought it went on the right, but possibly through a tree who knows where it went. It's a sort of blind shot on the right side. So I hit a provisional. I played my provisional and put the shot on the green. On my way to the green I walked along the right side of the rough and found my original ball in the most unlikely of places - I hadn't hit a drive this far before. What happened is that my original drive was about 60 yds longer than the drive I made with my provisional.

My provisional was lying 4 on the green. My original was lying 1 in the rough. I just hadn't gotten to it yet. But since the original ball was closer to the hole than from where I played the 4th shot with my provisional and I hadn't looked for it yet, I abandoned my provisional and played my original ball, putting it on the green and making par.

If a competitor had hit a drive in that same general area and hit my original ball for his/her second shot, I would have had no chance of finding it.

So in the OPs original post, I'd say only the OP knows for sure if he had a chance of finding it. By the fellow competitor hitting his ball, it removed any chance that the OP had of finding the ball. So by what happened, the OP got penalized two strokes for following the rules; the fellow competitor got penalized two strokes, and then subsequently disqualified for failing to correct the situation before hitting a ball at the next tee (i.e. going back to the previous tee, replaying the hole hitting 3 from the tee) - but since this was not a tournament, only penalized two strokes.

 

[Fourputt]

2 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

Well I've been in a situation where on my 7th hole hit a tee shot. I thought it went on the right, but possibly through a tree who knows where it went. It's a sort of blind shot on the right side. So I hit a provisional. I played my provisional and put the shot on the green. On my way to the green I walked along the right side of the rough and found my original ball in the most unlikely of places - I hadn't hit a drive this far before. What happened is that my original drive was about 60 yds longer than the drive I made with my provisional.

My provisional was lying 4 on the green. My original was lying 1 in the rough. I just hadn't gotten to it yet. But since the original ball was closer to the hole than from where I played the 4th shot with my provisional and I hadn't looked for it yet, I abandoned my provisional and played my original ball, putting it on the green and making par.

If a competitor had hit a drive in that same general area and hit my original ball for his/her second shot, I would have had no chance of finding it.

So in the OPs original post, I'd say only the OP knows for sure if he had a chance of finding it. By the fellow competitor hitting his ball, it removed any chance that the OP had of finding the ball. So by what happened, the OP got penalized two strokes for following the rules; the fellow competitor got penalized two strokes, and then subsequently disqualified for failing to correct the situation before hitting a ball at the next tee (i.e. going back to the previous tee, replaying the hole hitting 3 from the tee) - but since this was not a tournament, only penalized two strokes.

 

Just for your information, you were wrong in abandoning the provisional ball.  Since the provisional was played from a point at or nearer the to the hole from where the original ball was expected to be, it became the  ball in play and the original ball was abandoned, regardless of it's actual location closer to the hole.  

[DrvFrShow]

Not necessarily. But such is the disadvantage of playing by yourself. You have to make these "executive decisions" on the course. However, I may have used a 5W for my second tee shot IIRC to make sure it was in the fairway, and it was about 190 yds out. I should have mentioned that.

In any event, due to the fact I shot a 100 in the round and it was mid last year, it has no effect on my HC now. The score has dropped off.

[Martyn W]

29 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

the fellow competitor got penalized two strokes, and then subsequently disqualified for failing to correct the situation before hitting a ball at the next tee (i.e. going back to the previous tee, replaying the hole hitting 3 from the tee) - but since this was not a tournament, only penalized two strokes.

 

'Tournament Rules" ARE the Rules, why do you think that the player is only penalized 2 strokes?

[DrvFrShow]

I still hate the rule.

[rogolf]

59 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

I still hate the rule.

According to Taylor Swift "Haters gonna hate."

[saevel25]

16 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Just for your information, you were wrong in abandoning the provisional ball.  Since the provisional was played from a point at or nearer the to the hole from where the original ball was expected to be, it became the  ball in play and the original ball was abandoned, regardless of it's actual location closer to the hole.  

I am not sure I am a fan of the the wording, "likely to be", in the 27-2 (b). 

There are situations where you just don't see the ball land. You hear the ball whack a tree very hard. In these cases there is no "likely to be". You just do not know. How am I suppose to know the likely place when I didn't see it hit a tree, but heard it. I've seen golf balls end up 70 yards right of where the ball hit a tree. 

In this case I would just say there is no likely to be because of the high uncertainty of what happens to the ball if it hits a tree. 
 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I am not sure I am a fan of the the wording, "likely to be", in the 27-2 (b). 

There are situations where you just don't see the ball land. You hear the ball whack a tree very hard. In these cases there is no "likely to be". You just do not know. How am I suppose to know the likely place when I didn't see it hit a tree, but heard it. I've seen golf balls end up 70 yards right of where the ball hit a tree.

The wording gives you a little benefit of the doubt. That's all.

Unless you play from near the green on a par five after hitting a provisional from the tee or something, nobody's going to say it was unreasonable that you hit another shot with your provisional because you thought your original ball was further ahead.

It helps pace of play (as the provisional does in the first place).

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I am not sure I am a fan of the the wording, "likely to be", in the 27-2 (b). 

There are situations where you just don't see the ball land. You hear the ball whack a tree very hard. In these cases there is no "likely to be". You just do not know. How am I suppose to know the likely place when I didn't see it hit a tree, but heard it. I've seen golf balls end up 70 yards right of where the ball hit a tree. 

In this case I would just say there is no likely to be because of the high uncertainty of what happens to the ball if it hits a tree. 
 

If you are looking for a ball, you are searching in an area where you feel it is "likely to be", aren't you?  I mean, nobody typically looks where the ball is unlikely to be.  And if you don't find it after searching for less than 5 minutes, go and play your provisional which was hit about the same distance as you thought the original ball was hit, then stumble across your original ball 20 yards farther up the hole, you feel that you should get to rescind the stroke just made?   The rules have never allowed such freedom, and I don't see any such change in the foreseeable future.  

The rules give you 5 minutes to search, or you can choose to suspend the search early and continue play with the provisional ball.  It's a decision you make, but you then have to live with your decision.  In either case, your actions have resulted in causing the original ball to be deemed lost under the rules.  That is a state which cannot be reversed.

[dkolo]

14 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

I still hate the rule.

 

13 hours ago, rogolf said:

According to Taylor Swift "Haters gonna hate."

Yeah, shake it off.

[Dormie1360]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

If you are looking for a ball, you are searching in an area where you feel it is "likely to be", aren't you?  I mean, nobody typically looks where the ball is unlikely to be.  And if you don't find it after searching for less than 5 minutes, go and play your provisional which was hit about the same distance as you thought the original ball was hit, then stumble across your original ball 20 yards farther up the hole, you feel that you should get to rescind the stroke just made?   The rules have never allowed such freedom, and I don't see any such change in the foreseeable future.  

The rules give you 5 minutes to search, or you can choose to suspend the search early and continue play with the provisional ball.  It's a decision you make, but you then have to live with your decision.  In either case, your actions have resulted in causing the original ball to be deemed lost under the rules.  That is a state which cannot be reversed.

Just to tag on this decision clarifies somewhat  the concept of "most likely to be".

 

27-2b/4

Provisional Ball Played from Beyond Where Original Ball Likely to Be But Not Beyond Where Original Ball Found

Q. A player, believing his tee shot might be lost or in a road defined as out of bounds, played a provisional ball. He searched for his original ball but did not find it. He went forward and played his provisional ball. Then he went farther forward and found his original ball in bounds. The original ball must have bounced down the road and then come back into bounds, because it was found much farther from the tee than anticipated. Was the original ball still the ball in play?

A. No. The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost (Rule 27-2b).

The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant.

[DrvFrShow]

I need to hire a forecaddie.

[sjduffers]

On November 10, 2015 at 9:34:51 AM, turtleback said:

This is a screwy situation, but the underlying reality is that you were not really affected in the least by the guy hitting your ball (other than, perhaps, mentally) .  You said yourself that it wasn't where you thought your ball would be - so if the fellow competitor hadn't hit a ball in that area no one would have looked for ANY ball there, and your ball would have not been found anyway.  You didn't find your ball where you thought it would be and so you played your provisional.  IOW, the FC hitting the ball did not in any way prevent you from finding your ball in the circumstances you've described.  It might under OTHER circumstances, but not these.  

Thought experiment:  exact same events except we eliminate your fellow competitor from the picture altogether.  Would you have found your ball?  Since you say it was someplace you never expected it to be I think the answer is clearly no.  

I disagree. The ball was in plain sight (in a sliver of the fairway actually) after being deflected by the tree.  Regardless of what anyone else would have done, I would have surely gone back a good 30 yards to look at a ball in plain sight when looking for an errant ball. Heck, I would do it while walking and this was riding in a cart, so really a no brainer.  The fellow competitor clearly robbed my of any chance at my original ball, by claiming "his" ball and hitting it before I completed my search and went over to the provisional.

To clarify, I didn't expect my original ball to be there because I thought the ball sailed over the tree and I didn't hear it hit any wood, but it was somewhat in the setting sun with a very steep drop-off (probably more than 100ft), so a bit hard to make a definite assessment...

2 hours ago, dkolo said:

 

Yeah, shake it off.

Brilliant! And that's all that needed to be said about this rule situation.  Thanks!