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Flexibility and doubts


Gharrison
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Hey guys, new to the Sandtrap, but have stumbled onto the site more than a few times. Anyway, I have a question regarding flexibility. I'm a 21 year old male, with very little flexibility, I struggle with a lack of distance (don't we all), but I've been getting regular coaching, my swing has improved but I just can't seem to get that extra yardage, and I know it's all down to not being very flexible, and not being able to make a good shoulder turn while keeping my lower body still. Any suggestions? I've tried some exercises but can anyone refer me to a reputable set of exercises guaranteed to work? Not warm up exercises, more long term flexibility exercises. At the moment I can only really swing half way back before I have to resort to breaking my left arm down and turning my hips too much in the backswing. I look at all my compadré's and they're all flexible and, with this, hit it well past me, it's getting pretty frustrating and embarrassing now at this stage. All feedback welcome.

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Originally Posted by Gharrison

Hey guys, new to the Sandtrap, but have stumbled onto the site more than a few times. Anyway, I have a question regarding flexibility. I'm a 21 year old male, with very little flexibility, I struggle with a lack of distance (don't we all), but I've been getting regular coaching, my swing has improved but I just can't seem to get that extra yardage, and I know it's all down to not being very flexible, and not being able to make a good shoulder turn while keeping my lower body still. Any suggestions? I've tried some exercises but can anyone refer me to a reputable set of exercises guaranteed to work? Not warm up exercises, more long term flexibility exercises. At the moment I can only really swing half way back before I have to resort to breaking my left arm down and turning my hips too much in the backswing. I look at all my compadré's and they're all flexible and, with this, hit it well past me, it's getting pretty frustrating and embarrassing now at this stage. All feedback welcome.

Things that will increase flexibility is lifting weights through the full range of motion. I've gained more flexibility in my hamstrings doing dead lifts than i ever did trying to touch my toes with my hands.

Yoga is good.

Basically for me its staying active. But don't discredit warm up exercises, they are very much important. If your warming up, NEVER do static stretching to warm up. Holding a stretch will cause your muscles to shut down. Static stretching is for post work out. If your warming up, just move around. Run on the tredmill. Sometimes i will make my first set of weight lifting very light, lots of reps, just to get those muscles warmed up for the next 2-3 sets of going heavy.

No real magic bullet here.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Originally Posted by saevel25

Things that will increase flexibility is lifting weights through the full range of motion. I've gained more flexibility in my hamstrings doing dead lifts than i ever did trying to touch my toes with my hands.

Yoga is good.

Basically for me its staying active. But don't discredit warm up exercises, they are very much important. If your warming up, NEVER do static stretching to warm up. Holding a stretch will cause your muscles to shut down. Static stretching is for post work out. If your warming up, just move around. Run on the tredmill. Sometimes i will make my first set of weight lifting very light, lots of reps, just to get those muscles warmed up for the next 2-3 sets of going heavy.

No real magic bullet here.


Actually, weight lifting decreases your flexibility.  Thats why they also warn people to not get too carried about with lifting weights and bulking up when it comes to golf.  The only thing that will improve flexibility is stretching exercises.

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Actually, weight lifting decreases your flexibility.  Thats why they also warn people to not get too carried about with lifting weights and bulking up when it comes to golf.  The only thing that will improve flexibility is stretching exercises.

there's a lot of 'depends' and so on to be making such a blanket statement weight lifting does not equal bulking up weight lifting can be a great part of adding flexibility when done right weights can be incorporated very successfully into a stretching program add muscle can aid in flexibility, and provide joint integrity, depends on how you maintain that muscle mass, not just the amount etc etc etc there's a crew here that seems to hear 'weight lifting' and confuses it with 'body building' - it's always good to be clear on what type and goal one has in weight lifting before drawing conclusions on it's applicability to certain sports or to other aspects of fitness/health/nutrition

Bill - 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer View Post


Actually, weight lifting decreases your flexibility.  Thats why they also warn people to not get too carried about with lifting weights and bulking up when it comes to golf.  The only thing that will improve flexibility is stretching exercises.

Actually your wrong

Just so you know i am not pulling this out of my ass,

http://www.acsm.org/about-acsm/media-room/acsm-in-the-news/2011/08/01/study-strength-training-improves-flexibility-too

Quote:
The results—which may surprise advocates of stretching to improve flexibility—showed no statistically significant advantage of stretching over resistance training. Resistance training, in fact, produced greater improvements in flexibility in some cases, while also improving strength. Whitehead emphasized that this was a preliminary study involving a small sample size and called for carefully designed research with more participants to confirm or disprove the results.

The key is if you are doing resistance training, and performing the FULL RANGE OF MOTION, you will gain flexibility.

Unless you are on steroids, or a genetic abnormality, you will not decrease flexibility with strength. Look at the military, do you think they would sacrifice flexibility for strength. They are not opposites, given that leaner people, lets say ballet dancers are at the high range of flexibility, but they practice a FULL RANGE OF MOTION with there movements, using just body weight. They are very much not as strong, but to say if you lift weights you are going to loose flexibility is just wrong. Given you can shift your self one way or another, being more flexible. But compared to a person who is lazy, doesn't exercise. A person who lift weights will be very much more flexible than that person.

to sum it up in terms of quantitative.

If a lazy person, 8-5 desk job, doesn't exercise, goes home and sits on the couch, lets put his flexibility at 10, he's not totally rigid

You get someone who does full body work out, resistance training, gains strength, your looking at a 50. Well call 50 an inshape person who works out.

You take that in shape person, then turn him into an olympic weight lifter for squats. His squat would be near 90, the rest of his body might be a 50, but his isolated area would be much higher.

Same with ballet dancers, they have to be loose and limber, so they practice stretching, but there movements are full range of motion, body weight only. Basic body movements is exercise, our bodies have to support our own weight. So there full body might be 80, very limber.

Look at Mark McGuire in baseball. took steroids, he is a very limber guy in his shoulders, and core muscles, because he played baseball. He constantly pushed those type of motions to there full range with some sort of resistance, either lifting weights or swinging a bat.

Do you think Tiger lost range of motion when he gained his muscle, the guy can still make a full turn with the best of them. I'm talking about top level athletes here. You take an average joe, just get him into the weight room and his flexibility will improve greatly. Cause by your assertion, if you take a couch potatoe, lets say he doesn't stretch, by lifting weights he should be very rigid and not very mobile. I can tell you that anybody who lifts weights will say they gain flexibility.

Now if your going to come back and say, "Well when i lift weights i get sore and stiff". Yea you will, your muscles are being broken down, but that occurs in a very limited time frame, and is mutual exclusive to your overall flexibility. I could say someone could pull a muscle doing a static stretch, and it becomes tight. Do we discount static stretching as making you inflexible, nope.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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So youre saying that someone who lifts weights is more flexible than someone who does yoga?  Really?

Whats in my :sunmountain: C-130 cart bag?

Woods: :mizuno: JPX 850 9.5*, :mizuno: JPX 850 15*, :mizuno: JPX-850 19*, :mizuno: JPX Fli-Hi #4, :mizuno: JPX 800 Pro 5-PW, :mizuno: MP T-4 50-06, 54-09 58-10, :cleveland: Smart Square Blade and :bridgestone: B330-S

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Originally Posted by saevel25

Things that will increase flexibility is lifting weights through the full range of motion. I've gained more flexibility in my hamstrings doing dead lifts than i ever did trying to touch my toes with my hands.

Yoga is good.

Basically for me its staying active. But don't discredit warm up exercises, they are very much important. If your warming up, NEVER do static stretching to warm up. Holding a stretch will cause your muscles to shut down. Static stretching is for post work out. If your warming up, just move around. Run on the tredmill. Sometimes i will make my first set of weight lifting very light, lots of reps, just to get those muscles warmed up for the next 2-3 sets of going heavy.

No real magic bullet here.

I don't agree on the stretching before excercising part. I started out lifting weights by threadmill warmup, but all it did was get my pulse up, it didn't prepare my muscles for anything. After a while, I started doing some dynamic stretching, which involved static parts too. Stretching before squatting made a huge difference on my mobility. Low weight on warm up lifts helps, but I got more out of dynamic stretching excercises.

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

So youre saying that someone who lifts weights is more flexible than someone who does yoga?  Really?

Where did he say this?

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So youre saying that someone who lifts weights is more flexible than someone who does yoga?  Really?

Never said that, yoga would be in the realm of ballet dancers, very limber. Yoga is basically full range of motion body weight only resistance training in some regards. But you said lifting weights decrease flexibility, not one makes you more flexible than another. I proved you wrong.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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I agree that correct weight lifting technique will help with flexibility and strength.  This is why physical therapist use resistance training coupled with flexibility exercises.  I do both.  My stretching routine has a lot of yoga elements to it.  My resistance training includes weights and well as bands and as saevel25 stated, I use full range of motion and lighter weights with more reps, 15 - 20.

I suggest these two books.  The Joey D book is great for evaluating your flexibility and gives exercises to improve strength and flexibility.

http://thesandtrap.com/products/fix-your-body-fix-your-swing-the-revolutionary-biomechanics-workout-program-used-by-tour-pros

Roger Fredericks has an excellent section on stretching.  They are mostly yoga style stretches.

http://thesandtrap.com/products/roger-fredericks-secrets-of-golf-instruction-flexibility-your-guide-to-mastering-golf-s-true-fundamentals

Scott

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Originally Posted by boogielicious

I agree that correct weight lifting technique will help with flexibility and strength.  This is why physical therapist use resistance training coupled with flexibility exercises.  I do both.  My stretching routine has a lot of yoga elements to it.  My resistance training includes weights and well as bands and as saevel25 stated, I use full range of motion and lighter weights with more reps, 15 - 20.

I suggest these two books.  The Joey D book is great for evaluating your flexibility and gives exercises to improve strength and flexibility.

http://thesandtrap.com/products/fix-your-body-fix-your-swing-the-revolutionary-biomechanics-workout-program-used-by-tour-pros

Roger Fredericks has an excellent section on stretching.  They are mostly yoga style stretches.

http://thesandtrap.com/products/roger-fredericks-secrets-of-golf-instruction-flexibility-your-guide-to-mastering-golf-s-true-fundamentals

I'll go with boogie here...

Roger Fredericks is good - I still do several of his exercises 7 years later and other stretches. TPI (titleist performance institute) also has stretches. I also do kettle bells. If you are that bad as a 21 yr old - I'd find a sports masseuse to pound the heck out of you. You may be too tight and need someone to beat you.

Once per month, I go to the former Dallas Stars therapist, and he beats the hell out of me for 1.5 hours - hands, machines, and stretches everything out... Well, not everything.. Some things can't be helped. But arms, legs, back, shoulders, chest, underneath the ribs, neck - relieves the build up of stress, too.

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I think the area people can gain a ton of stability is in the joints. Most people sit all day, that means they are hardly using any muscles. There not standing or moving, so there ankles, knees, hips, core become week. If you want to get better at golf, especially with the first three keys, work on stability in the lower body joints.

Practice balancing on one foot, you can up this by standing on a pillow, or folded exercise mat (its a bit cheaper than buying one of those balance tools, exercise mats become multipurpose tools then)

Also work on the hip abductors and adductors

For most people i always recommend full body resistance training routine, with complex weights. Isolation exercises have there purpose, but to strengthen the stabalizing muscles, complex free weights are the best. For golf specific stuff,

Flexibility in the shoulders, and torso (rotation)

Stability in the ankles, knees, hips

Power in the hamstrings, gluts, and core

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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What's in My Bag
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  • 2 months later...
Hi, Actually joined this forum for this discussion as i am having similar issues as the original poster. Granted, i am some 15-16 years older than he is. Nevertheless, some background: i have trained with weights since i was 14 years old. Not the fitness type or bodybuilding type of stuff, but weightlifting and powerlifting. I have to confess that since i discovered golf last summer, i haven't been to the gym very many times. However, as my muscle mass is decreasing, which i hoped would help with my shoulder flexibility, i find myself still as stiff as a board. Especially the shoulder turn in the backswing is pathetic. My left arm turns to about 90 degrees at the top, which according to the pro at my club, is not the end of the world, but i know i am then compensating for that the rest of the way. This, i think, has actually led to me having some pretty bad back pain recently. What i have started doing during the past week or so, is foam rolling. I bought a cylindrical shaped roll from a general sporting goods store. I think it's mainly used for pilates but i haven't really had the time to look into that. I am "rolling" it on my upper back and under my glutes and trying to find a way to target my shoulders. It feels really painful at first, but the idea is that it opens up the "knots" in your muscles. Afterwards, it feels like i actually have much more blood circulation in those areas. I don't know if this will benefit in the long run, but so far so good. At least my hips are feeling more mobile and flexible. When it comes to weight training for golf flexibility, i am not sure it would be my first choice. Don't get me wrong, weight training has a ton of benefits for general health. But if your primary goal is flexibility, i would look elsewhere. Remember, muscles are, in principle, rubber bands that snap your limbs around the joints. The stronger/tighter the muscles, the harder it is to to fully stretch them. Think about a top class powerlifter doing squats. They can't even get to the bottom position of a squat unless they have significant weight on the bar. Also, when professional athletes train with weights, they have professional strength trainers watching, making sure they also maintain the required flexibility to complete the task they get paid for. When most people go to a gym, they will copy some program from a book, magazine, or worst case scenario, a buddy. For flexibility, your weight training program needs to be designed by someone who knows what they are doing. And i don't mean the nice looking girl//guy with a fake tan at the reception of 24/7 fitness centers.i certainly don't know how to train with weights AND improve flexibility. Look for someone who works with athletes that compete either professionally or at the division 1 college level. Also, expect them to charge for their services.. I will keep doing the foam rolling at least 2-3 times a week and possibly doing some static stretching in the evenings. Weight loss is another (almost permanent) point on the agenda. I currently weigh 115 kg, which translates to about 255 lbs for those of you on the new continent. Height is 188cm, or 6'2. I think/hope the lost bodymass will make it easier to rotate my body. For those of you laughing at this last sentence, think about somebody that you know who is overweight. How do they put their socks/shoes on? Not a pretty sight. One of my old buddies from the gym actually has to put his belt through the loops on his pants BEFORE he puts his pants on. Will post later about the foam rolling and if it's working. I'm getting videotaped on saturday by our pro and i'm hoping to show some improvement.
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Totally agree that yoga and weightlifting and stretching exercises are the way to go.

I would just also like to add that I'm not sure that flexibility is necessarily all that important for a good golf swing.  I can't bend over and touch my toes while keeping my legs straight even with a 12" ruler in my hand, but I can still poke it out there fairly well.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Actually, weight lifting decreases your flexibility.  Thats why they also warn people to not get too carried about with lifting weights and bulking up when it comes to golf.  The only thing that will improve flexibility is stretching exercises.

People really need to get out of this mindset. It's actually even been proven that BODYBUILDERS are far my flexible then the average person. You can just type in flexible body builder on youtube and get a ton of vids...but nobody really needs to see that. The key is to add stretching exercises with your weight lifting, and you'll be completely fine.

I'm not saying be a body builder and a golfer. I AM saying I think weight lifting and golf pairs up pretty well. You KNOW Adam Scott is lifting.

Tiger and Rory as well.

Ian Poulter...not as much. :D

Joel Holden

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If you're weight-lifting, focus on full range of motion. Cannot stress this enough. Doesn't matter what you're doing, bench, squats, shoulder press, or curls. Don't sacrifice ROM for increased weight. Patience is key.

Yoga, especially arm binds, shoulder openers, will help free your swing immensely. Among all of the other poses that help your leg, hip, and back health, I've found that the rotator cuff and shoulder work to be most beneficial to my game.

If you're a strong guy but lack flexibility, I would go straight to Yoga (Vinyasa Flow is a good place to start). If you can get into Bird of Paradise pose, then you've reached a very good level of flexibility for golf in both your upper and lower body as well as an awesome supported core. (http://www.yogajournal.com/practice/2776)

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I went back to the drawing board at home and thought "There's got to be some sort of compromise to this swing...some kind of combination of swings...something I can build that would get my old distance back but not destroy the lower lumbar of my spine." In the past 13 years, I had tried it *all*. Conventional swing, modern swing, stack and tilt (my back still hurts when I think of that one), rotary swing (hello shanks), the peak performance golf swing (don't ever fat one while trying that swing, you might break your wrists), 3/4 hold-off swing (great for wedges, not so much a driver), hand-and-arm swing...and on and on. Soooo...I went back to thinking about the width swing I had learned in the L.A.W.S of golf book and videos I had studied, and how I could implement the width element of that swing without destroying my back. It was the only swing technique I ever tried that got me comfortable distance and consistent impact and ball flight while swinging around say 85% or thereabouts. Hmmmm... What if I could combine it with a single plane swing? I know, I know...it sounds loony tunes. But I had already plunked down the $149 for a year's worth of unlimited hitting bay time at the PGA Superstore (commitment, right?), so I figured I had nothing to lose by attempting what would appear to be  moronic and ridiculous-looking setups and stances and swings in a hitting bay all by myself. The results have been nothing less than astounding to me. Setup (after four months of this on an actual driving range and getting *really* strange looks) is as follows (I'll have pics and video soon for whoever can bear to watch it): Grip: Left hand *slightly* strong, right hand neutral (this is to keep the ball from hooking off the planet). Alignment: All irons straight off the nose (I'll explain why in a bit), fairway woods of my left cheek, driver off my left nipple. Posture: *Slightly* hunched over with rounded shoulders (this is to give me room for my arms to come under my chest in the back swing). Foot Position: Left foot flared, right foot flared and dropped back about 12 inches (this gives me room to rotate my thoracic spine and gives the club depth in the width dimension, since I don't have Bubbas Watson's flexibility). Shoulders stay square with the target line. Hands stay high and in line with the lead forearm a la Moe Norman. Slight spine tilt away from the target. Backswing is in and up at a 45 degree angle if looking from behind. I only swing back until my lead forearm is parallel to the ground. I tuck the left elbow on the downswing and let it rip. The reason I play all my irons off my nose? Wait for it... All my irons... 7 iron to Sand Wedge... are single length irons. So I'm using a rotational swing...on a single plane...with single length irons (based off my 7 iron). Never hit my irons better in my life - and hitting just as far now as I was when I started golfing 13 years ago. Also - driver and fairway woods are stupid-easy for me to hit now. My misses are mostly a high cut now, and that only happens when I slide my left hip because I get fast at the top. As long as I keep my lower body quiet until my hands drop (they don't have far to drop, either), then I get a pretty dang straight ball flight. Pull hooks and block are now a thing of the past. Anyhoo, here's the setup of my clubs. I have about a 94 mph driver swing speed. Driver: Ping G410 9 degree cranked up to 10.5 degrees, Alta CB R flex carry is 235-ish  3-wood: Ping G 410 13.5 degrees Alta CB R flex 65 grams, flat setting, stated loft, carry is around 215 5-wood: Ping G-410 17.5 degrees Alta CB R flex 65 grams, flat setting, stated loft, carry is 202 7-wood 2008 Taylormade Burner, 21 degrees, stock REAX S flex 49 grams, carry is 192 9-wood Ping G410 23.5 degrees Alta CB R flex 65 grams, flat setting, stated loft, carry is 182 6 hybrid Ping G425 31 degrees Alta CB R flex 70 grams, stated loft, flat setting, carry is 158  Irons: are all custom fit Sterling single-length irons by Wishon Golf. 7 146 yds 8 135 yds 9 125 yds PW 110 GW 98 SW 83 Putter: Custom Edel blade I had made in 2012 after golfing for a year and I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it. REALLY interested in getting fitted for a L.A.B DF 3 with a forearm grip...stroked a L.A.B. DF 2.1 at the PGA Superstore they had on the 'pre-owned' rack and it was $519 wuuuuut!!! So that's only 13 clubs...but I am looking on eBay to fill that gap where the 5 hybrid should be, would be a perfect 170 yd club right there I think. Before doing to the single length clubs, I had Ping irons 7-PW and four Vokeys in 48, 52, 56 and 60 in the bag and the single length clubs were gathering dust in the closet for the last 5 years. However, after actually playing a few rounds and seeing where the numbers were adding up, it was missed greens from 150 and in. So, I wanted to take the variable length mid and short irons out the the equation to keep my setup simpler. Gotta say, it worked like a charm.  Same setup as a 7-iron for all my scoring clubs and it keeps everything repeatable. Yes, it feels weird looking down at a wedge with 7-iron length, but I got used to it. The ball goes the same distances as my Ping irons and Vokey wedges used to but flies *way* higher and lands super soft. Also, if I want to chip or pitch with them I just choke down a little, as the swing weight difference won't matter much for those shots. I haven't actually kept score yet, as I haven't even gotten around to really working on my short game or putting at all. Right now, I'm just scoring fairways and greens hit or missed, approaches hit or missed and how many pars per round I can make. So far my best since this 'comeback' started is 8 pars, 1 birdie (almost had a hole-in-one lol), two bogies and seven 'others' (fats, thins, skulled chips across the green and tears may have been involved). I hit 3 of the Par 4 greens in regulation and hit 10 of 14 fairways. The ones I missed were not off the fairway by much and I finished the round with the same Pro V1X I started with - albeit a little scuffed up. Anyway, that's the story and after years of struggle I finally found something that works *for me*. I'll try to get some pics of setup and possibly video if anyone's interested and has a strong stomach haha. I'm gonna start reading the Dave Pelz short game and putting bibles this week, I'm sure that will be an adventure haha! Thanks for the space to write this.
    • Day 125 - Played 18. Ball striking is still off. Way off. 
    • Day 28: Wind really aggravated my allergies today, so attempted some full swing work outdoors but was kind of miserable. Moved indoors for some putting and mirror work. 
    • Also, the drop was legit: PGA Tour Fargo Championship 2024: Xander Schauffele controversial drop video, ruling, leaderboard, Jason Day, highlights ‘Most ridiculous thing I’ve seen’: Golf fans fume at US star‘s unbelievably lucky break The rules don't exist only to punish golfers.
    • Day 304: did a stack session. 
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